Why are CBS guitars seen worse than CBS amps?

[Guitarman555]

I am always hearing and reading: "this is pre cbs guitar, better than cbs fender". But why this 1965 line is not mentioned by amps? Have you ever heard " This is pre cbs black face form 1964, much better than cbs blackface from 1966?" Did Fender do any changes in amps within cbs period?

[oid]

Silverface is essentially the line for CBS in the amp world, they more or less left the amps alone until then and many people consider the silverface to be greatly inferior to the blackface. The black vs silver debate is no where near as insufferable as it once was, but it can still get quite bad.

[Guitarman555]

Silverface is essentially the line for CBS in the amp world, they more or less left the amps alone until then and many people consider the silverface to be greatly inferior to the blackface. The black vs silver debate is no where near as insufferable as it once was, but it can still get quite bad.

Well, silverface came later, cbs overtook fender in 1965, when it was black face wave in full strength. The same thing, if you look at eg Strats, Jazzmasters from 1965, everybody will concider them worse than 1964 onces. So this is the thing what I am thinking about: Fender did some changes in guitars in 1965 (clay dots vanished and perl dots started, big heads from late1965, etc), but in the blackface amps I know only one developement from 1965, which is Fender logo on front of box, but maybe there are more changes?

[Embenny]

Yes, all the silverface models were CBS-era designs cosmetically and circuit-wise.

I think the reasons CBS amps have less of a fuss made are numerous. Firstly, Fender produced a ton more pre-CBS amps than they did guitars. In terms of supply/demand, you can still find certain nice blackface amps for like $800. Good luck finding pre-cbs guitars for that price in original condition. So, because pre-cbs amps are not absurdly expensive, that's already one reason people make less of a deal about cbs taking over.

Oh, and they continued the amps with the same circuits and cosmetics for a while after taking over, too. So a '66 blackface deluxe resembles a '64 blackface deluxe in more ways than a '66 Jag resembles a '64 Jag, for example.

Then, you have the fact that silverface amps sound amazing (yes, I will fight that fight) and didn't suffer the QC issues that plagues the guitars. I don't know what the amp equivalent of heavy bodies and sloppy neck pockets is, maybe undersized power transformers and speakers that blow? In any case, that didn't happen. Silverface amps are very reliable.

So you have great-sounding, reliable amps post-CBS vs not-that-pricey pre-CBS models. It's a less stark contrast in terms of quality and supply/demand than there is for the guitars, so the vintage market pricing reflects that.

There used to be a LOT of silverface hate in the vintage market. I laughed when I saw Fender has reissued some silverface amps, because you can get the originals for not that much more. But, in any case, most of the circuits sound amazing, and plenty are easily "blackfaced" to get you that mid-60's tone if you prefer it.

[Guitarman555]

Yes, all the silverface models were CBS-era designs cosmetically and circuit-wise.

I think the reasons CBS amps have less of a fuss made are numerous. Firstly, Fender produced a ton more pre-CBS amps than they did guitars. In terms of supply/demand, you can still find certain nice blackface amps for like $800. Good luck finding pre-cbs guitars for that price in original condition. So, because pre-cbs amps are not absurdly expensive, that's already one reason people make less of a deal about cbs taking over.

Oh, and they continued the amps with the same circuits and cosmetics for a while after taking over, too. So a '66 blackface deluxe resembles a '64 blackface deluxe in more ways than a '66 Jag resembles a '64 Jag, for example.

Then, you have the fact that silverface amps sound amazing (yes, I will fight that fight) and didn't suffer the QC issues that plagues the guitars. I don't know what the amp equivalent of heavy bodies and sloppy neck pockets is, maybe undersized power transformers and speakers that blow? In any case, that didn't happen. Silverface amps are very reliable.

So you have great-sounding, reliable amps post-CBS vs not-that-pricey pre-CBS models. It's a less stark contrast in terms of quality and supply/demand than there is for the guitars, so the vintage market pricing reflects that.

There used to be a LOT of silverface hate in the vintage market. I laughed when I saw Fender has reissued some silverface amps, because you can get the originals for not that much more. But, in any case, most of the circuits sound amazing, and plenty are easily "blackfaced" to get you that mid-60's tone if you prefer it.

I got you, everything you are saying about amp changes from 1965 on is true, but, how about quality control? Everybody says that this was an important problem after cbs takeover. And this should affect also amps, don´t you think? Only an idea, i am not sure..

[marqueemoon]

Some silverface amps really didn't change that much.

Modding vintage amps is a much more accepted practice than modding vintage guitars, and vintage in reality any 40-50 year old amp that's gotten regular use is going to have some changes under the hood.

To me silver vs. blackface is (where there are notable differences) just two distinct and valid sets of sounds.

Some CBS guitars really are trash, but most are not as bad as they're made out to be. In general they are getting overvalued though.

[Despot]

As an owner of two SF amps (one of which was bought instead of a BF version of the same amp) I can agree with mbene above.

SF Princetons are great sounding amps - and the changes were minimal (and can be reversed easily) on most early '70s SF Princetons (mainly the rectifier). Speakers were the main area where you can see costs being cut - my own SFPR has an original Oxford speaker ... and it's a beautiful sounding thing having broken in nicely over the years. My old SF NR Princeton had a modern EV speaker - which was replaced by a Weber. Once the Weber was in there the amp sounded 'right'.

Sorry ... back to my point about SF v BF. I bought the SFPR at the same time that I was circling round a '65 Deluxe Reverb that was for sale in Dublin. I bought the PR mostly due to the price (it was just over a grand) but also because I came to accept that the Deluxe was just going to be too damn loud! But when I put the two of them against each other, while the Deluxe sounded fantastic, the Princeton just sounded more like the sound I wanted. Someone else might say that the SFPR sounded rubbish ... but it was exactly what I wanted.

Now ... Fender did skimp and cut costs in the CBS years on amps - I don't see much of an impact on stuff like components of the circuit (I'm guessing that capacitors and transformers were less of a cost issue than speakers) - but the main difference I see is in cabinets. The material used was of poorer quality and cabinets can have a bit more 'flex' than I'd like (mine included). But this will have less of an impact than with CBS guitars where the pickups changed, the wood got heavier and standards slipped in QC.

[Guitarman555]

As an owner of two SF amps (one of which was bought instead of a BF version of the same amp) I can agree with mbene above.

SF Princetons are great sounding amps - and the changes were minimal (and can be reversed easily) on most early '70s SF Princetons (mainly the rectifier). Speakers were the main area where you can see costs being cut - my own SFPR has an original Oxford speaker ... and it's a beautiful sounding thing having broken in nicely over the years. My old SF NR Princeton had a modern EV speaker - which was replaced by a Weber. Once the Weber was in there the amp sounded 'right'.

Sorry ... back to my point about SF v BF. I bought the SFPR at the same time that I was circling round a '65 Deluxe Reverb that was for sale in Dublin. I bought the PR mostly due to the price (it was just over a grand) but also because I came to accept that the Deluxe was just going to be too damn loud! But when I put the two of them against each other, while the Deluxe sounded fantastic, the Princeton just sounded more like the sound I wanted. Someone else might say that the SFPR sounded rubbish ... but it was exactly what I wanted.

Now ... Fender did skimp and cut costs in the CBS years on amps - I don't see much of an impact on stuff like components of the circuit (I'm guessing that capacitors and transformers were less of a cost issue than speakers) - but the main difference I see is in cabinets. The material used was of poorer quality and cabinets can have a bit more 'flex' than I'd like (mine included). But this will have less of an impact than with CBS guitars where the pickups changed, the wood got heavier and standards slipped in QC.

Depot, interesting thoughts, thanks. I did not know that that cbs foxes changes boxes of amps!! Btw. when did they changed pickups, on which guitars and what exactly? And wood of guitars?

[Despot]

Well pickups changed on most models around '63 or '64 (some earlier than that ... some later). You generally went from the black bobbin '50s and early '60s type to the 'grey bobbin' type that came in just before the CBS take-over. The pickups started to lean more to the treble end and got a lot brighter. There's an argument that says that this change was due to Leo Fender getting older (and losing treble range in his hearing) ... but I'd say it might have been to do with the changes in music around that time.

Anyway ... pickups were changed before CBS took over. However ... though the general style of pickups changed, in my experience some of the pickups wound during the CBS years were far too bright ... even over how they were designed to be bright. I'm basing this on a few offsets I've played, as well as a few telecasters and one strat where the pickups leaned towards brittle/shrill rather than bright.

Hardware changed - you went from Kluson tuners to the Fender F tuner ... which then changed again in the 70s to an inferior version of the Fender F tuner.

Bridges changed - Telecaster bridges went from barrel bridges to threaded barrel bridges, to thinner threaded barrels to finally six individual threaded saddles - a lot of people prefer the older style bridges.

Wood changed - there was a lot less QC around the weight of wood. That doesn't mean you won't find light CBS era guitars (I've owned two - a '66 Jazzmaster and a '76 Telecaster Custom that were lighter than any other I've tried since), but it does mean that the 'typical' weight for guitars in the CBS period went up - I normally expect Fenders from this period to be heavier rather than lighter ... and that's usually how it goes. Bodies went from single or two piece wood (ash or alder) to multiple pieces - I've seen a Telecaster that appeared to be made from a sandwich of five pieces once!

As for SF amps ... the two that I've owned were similar in that they had very light cabinets due to being made from particle board of some form. Basically the junkiest wood Fender had ever used. Now ... that doesn't stop my '72 Princeton Reverb from sounding bloody fantastic (or indeed it's '74 Princeton NR brother) ... but it is a difference. By and large blackface cabinets were made with a degree more precision and attention to detail - not to mention better materials.

However .. the quality of wiring in my SF PR was pretty damn good when I popped the chassis out. The components were decent - while CBS skrimped on costs they seem to have done so (at least initially) on parts of the amps that didn't really kill how the amps sounded. I toyed with the idea of changing the rectifier on my SFPR to blackface spec - but in the end I didn't do it. I love how mine sounds ... so I decided not to mess with it. I've replaced caps that needed replacing, removed the 'death cap' and otherwise it's pretty un-messed with.

So yeah ... CBS meant changes at Fender. For amps those changes had less of an impact it seems ... at least until they made substantial changes to the amp wiring in the latter end of the '70s (usually the push/pull pot models). But at the same time one of the nicest sounding and playing Telecasters I've ever played was my old '76 Custom - including pitting it against my current '66 Standard. Similarly my old '66 Jazzmaster was a fantastic Jazzmaster - not just a fantastic CBS JM ... but overall. I sold it only when I'd replaced it with a 1962/3 Jazzmaster that I preferred - the one I kept wasn't better ... it was just different. Both were great guitars - I just preferred the '62 a little bit more (it had a mellower sound whereas the '66 sounded grittier).

[Guitarman555]

Well pickups changed on most models around '63 or '64 (some earlier than that ... some later). You generally went from the black bobbin '50s and early '60s type to the 'grey bobbin' type that came in just before the CBS take-over. The pickups started to lean more to the treble end and got a lot brighter. There's an argument that says that this change was due to Leo Fender getting older (and losing treble range in his hearing) ... but I'd say it might have been to do with the changes in music around that time.

Anyway ... pickups were changed before CBS took over. However ... though the general style of pickups changed, in my experience some of the pickups wound during the CBS years were far too bright ... even over how they were designed to be bright. I'm basing this on a few offsets I've played, as well as a few telecasters and one strat where the pickups leaned towards brittle/shrill rather than bright.

Hardware changed - you went from Kluson tuners to the Fender F tuner ... which then changed again in the 70s to an inferior version of the Fender F tuner.

Bridges changed - Telecaster bridges went from barrel bridges to threaded barrel bridges, to thinner threaded barrels to finally six individual threaded saddles - a lot of people prefer the older style bridges.

Wood changed - there was a lot less QC around the weight of wood. That doesn't mean you won't find light CBS era guitars (I've owned two - a '66 Jazzmaster and a '76 Telecaster Custom that were lighter than any other I've tried since), but it does mean that the 'typical' weight for guitars in the CBS period went up - I normally expect Fenders from this period to be heavier rather than lighter ... and that's usually how it goes. Bodies went from single or two piece wood (ash or alder) to multiple pieces - I've seen a Telecaster that appeared to be made from a sandwich of five pieces once!

As for SF amps ... the two that I've owned were similar in that they had very light cabinets due to being made from particle board of some form. Basically the junkiest wood Fender had ever used. Now ... that doesn't stop my '72 Princeton Reverb from sounding bloody fantastic (or indeed it's '74 Princeton NR brother) ... but it is a difference. By and large blackface cabinets were made with a degree more precision and attention to detail - not to mention better materials.

However .. the quality of wiring in my SF PR was pretty damn good when I popped the chassis out. The components were decent - while CBS skrimped on costs they seem to have done so (at least initially) on parts of the amps that didn't really kill how the amps sounded. I toyed with the idea of changing the rectifier on my SFPR to blackface spec - but in the end I didn't do it. I love how mine sounds ... so I decided not to mess with it. I've replaced caps that needed replacing, removed the 'death cap' and otherwise it's pretty un-messed with.

So yeah ... CBS meant changes at Fender. For amps those changes had less of an impact it seems ... at least until they made substantial changes to the amp wiring in the latter end of the '70s (usually the push/pull pot models). But at the same time one of the nicest sounding and playing Telecasters I've ever played was my old '76 Custom - including pitting it against my current '66 Standard. Similarly my old '66 Jazzmaster was a fantastic Jazzmaster - not just a fantastic CBS JM ... but overall. I sold it only when I'd replaced it with a 1962/3 Jazzmaster that I preferred - the one I kept wasn't better ... it was just different. Both were great guitars - I just preferred the '62 a little bit more (it had a mellower sound whereas the '66 sounded grittier).

I have heard that that Leo changed wiring(initaally it was a different wire) of JM pickups during 1962-63, or so. This + slabboard makes the difference between dark sound of early jazzmasters and 1963-4 jazzmasters, that are more bright, but more resonant and really unbelievable amazing guitars. They still have black bobbin. But the sound of post cbs and maybe already late 1964 jazzmasters was even brighter (as far what I saw), and not nice. It interesing that something had to change in 1967, when they started with block dots, the sound is again totally different, but nice. Do you think that early 1964 jazzies have still 1 piece body?