Amp loudness?

[Larsongs]

I have a Fender Pro Tube Twin that’s about 15 years old. I’ve played it somewhere between 1500-2000 hours. I’m approximating..

I’ve had to replace a couple Tubes & the Reverb Tank..

I’m noticing that even on the 100 Watt setting the volume is far lower than my 65 DRRI at the same Volume & Tone Settings.. I’ve done the Chop Stick Tube Test & replaced the V2 tube. The rest of the Tubes seem fine.

On the 25 Watt Setting it should be pretty much the same as the 65 DRRI given they’re at equal Volume & Tone levels.. Right?

What do you all think the problem is?

I’m thinking all the Tubes might need replacement.. If so, what reasonably priced Tubes will best replicate a 60’s Twin sound?

Thanks

[Dr Tony Balls]

A couple of things to note:

1) You're conflating volume and power which, while they are related, can be misleading as the relationship is non-linear. A 100watt Marshall will only be ~10% louder than a 50watt equivalent. Its not a whole lot.

2) Speaker choice is going to make a HUGE difference in the sound and volume level of an amp. To properly compare these two amps you'd want to A/B them with the same speaker or external cabinet.

3) That "1/4 power" has some sort of power reduction and it may be 1/4 power but it also may be something much lower than 1/4 power so the consumer sees effects that are more like 1/4 volume. Hard to tell without doing some measurements.

It could be that there's a problem with the Twin, but it also could be that it has less efficient speakers than the DR and thus the DR sounds louder. Or it has some other limiting factor that makes it less loud. Again its hard to tell without a proper A/B test.

Tubes going bad generally dont result in a volume drop in my experience, but I could be wrong. As for tube brands...any of them will do just fine so long as they are matched pairs or quads from the vendor.

[Larsongs]

Both Amps are Stock.. No Mods..

The Twin has 2 - 12” Fender Specially Designed by Eminence Speakers- Made in USA..

My 65 DRRI has the C-12K…

[OffYourFace]

is the power scaling switch working right? Do you hear a difference when you switch it? Maybe it's stuck on the 25w setting?
If it's not as loud as it used to be, perhaps one pair of power tubes isn't activated? That's what it sounds like to me. Otherwise it should be "louder" with the two speakers vs one speaker of the DR.

You could try plugging the twin into the DR's speaker for a minute and see if that makes a difference.

[Larsongs]

The 100 Watt setting on my Twin is definitely louder than the 25 Watt setting.. But, on the 100 Watt setting the Volume is far lower than my 22 Watt 65 DRRI given they’re both at the same Volume & Tone levels..

I’m thinking Power Tubes too. Given 25 & 100 Watt volumes are far lower than my 65 DRRI could it be all 4 Power Tubes need replacing even if they don’t crackle, pop or make any noise when tapped with a Chop Stick?

Thanks

[Dr Tony Balls]

The 100 Watt setting on my Twin is definitely louder than the 25 Watt setting.. But, on the 100 Watt setting the Volume is far lower than my 22 Watt 65 DRRI given they’re both at the same Volume & Tone levels..

wait wait....what does "given they're both at the same Volume & Tone levels" mean? Specifically the Volume part. Does this mean that you have both Volume knobs turned to 5, say, and are using that as a comparison?

[Larsongs]

If I turn the Volume & Tone settings on both Amps at 5.. And the Twin is set at either 25 or 100 Watts. The Twin isn’t equally as loud as the 65 DRRI..

Wait.. I think I fixed it… I pushed the Tubes tight in their Sockets.. Maybe they were loose hauling the Amp around all these years?

I’ll do an A/B test later tonight when I have time..

Still, curious, if it doesn’t solve the issue..

Also, if I have to change Tubes what reasonably priced Tubes most replicate a 60’s Twin sound?

Thanks

[JSett]

Just buy some JJs, the power tubes in a twin don't really overdrive unless you want to strip wallpaper so you just want clean power. JJs will do just fine.

[OffYourFace]

I like these but they’re expensive. They’re a bit overpriced but I think they sound better than JJs even at normal clean levels.

TAD


A quad of JJ 6L6s will be about $35-40 less. Since your twin is a more modern design, I’d probably go with the JJs. But I’ve been using TAD sets in vintage Fenders for about 14 years now and I’ve never had an issue. I don’t know if you’ll hear the difference in that amp. I’ve never played thru one.

JJs have been very reliable for me too. But sometimes I’ve gotten a dud right out of the box (already bad with white cloudy top) or a matched pair will slowly become unbalanced. For this reason, I will only get them Apex matched and burned in. But I haven’t bought JJ 6L6s in years.. I put new JJ 6V6, EL34 and EL84s in new matchless amps every week and I rarely get a dud… but I do once in awhile.

[mynameisjonas]

Have you compared both amps at their maximum volume (the loudest they can get before they just get more distorted)? It could be that the twin has a different taper on the volume pot. "Volume on 5" can be very different, even on two amps with the same wattage.

Or are you certain it became quieter after the tube change?

[Dr Tony Balls]

Have you compared both amps at their maximum volume (the loudest they can get before they just get more distorted)? It could be that the twin has a different taper on the volume pot. "Volume on 5" can be very different, even on two amps with the same wattage.

Yeah this is what i'm wondering about. The OP doesnt seem to be making a lot of "apples-to-apples" comparisons between the two amps and so its hard to say if anything is actually errant.

[Larsongs]

I’m trying to do as close as possible exact Apples to Apples comparison..

I use both of these Amps for recording Double Track Stereo Tracks via a Keeley 30ms Double Tracker Pedal. Each Amp is in a separate isolated room. Both are Mic’d with SM-57’s... The Keeley & Record levels set the same levels through my Focusrite Interface. With the Twin set at 25 Watts.. Both Amps with Volume & Tone set at 5 should be pretty close. Shouldn’t they?

To get them balanced I have to turn the Volume up to 8-9 on the Twin at the 25 Watt Setting..

The only Tube I changed was the V2.. I don’t think there was a noticeable difference before & after..

The TAD’s sound interesting..

I’ve used JJ’s on other Amps & like them.. I do notice that Tubes change sound of Amps.. I’d like some reasonably priced Tubes that will help closely replicate a 60’s Twin..

Different Taper makes sense but why such big difference between the Amps? The Twin Volume 8-9 & the 65 DRRI Volume at 5?

[Dr Tony Balls]

Both Amps with Volume & Tone set at 5 should be pretty close. Shouldn’t they?

No. Pot tapers are different, amp designs are different, etc. 5, weirdly, does not equal 5.

Different Taper makes sense but why such big difference between the Amps? The Twin Volume 8-9 & the 65 DRRI Volume at 5?

Many things, as discussed. Pot taper, the actual circuit, the speakers, etc. There's a lot of stuff that makes an amp "loud".

I'm not saying its not a tube (or other component) related issue but its senseless and expensive to start down that route before identifying if there even is an issue.

[OffYourFace]

It’s hard to know what’s going on since we can’t hear what you hear. Can you get another opinion from someone who can be in the room with you?

Sometimes a big fender amp like a twin can appear to be not very loud because it’s not pushing the same frequencies as say a Deluxe reverb UNLESS you crank up the midrange control. The DR has a fixed midrange set with a 6.8k resistor and the Twin has a 10k midrange pot. And with the taper of these pots, when the mid is set to 5 it’s probably set to around 2.7k instead of 5k. So crank up the mid and see how that affects your perception.

[ryland]

I wouldn't get JJs for a combo. I've had better luck with their 6L6 than 6V6s, but I've been through a enough microphonic 6V6s to turn me off on their power tubes.