Daisy-chaining amps

[øøøøøøø]

How do I know if my amp (SF Vibro champ -67) can do this? And can I break stuff if I set it up like that inte my JC-50?

It will work with no risk whatsoever. Guitar into input 1 VC. Plug cable between input 2 VC and input JC50.

Listen. Are they in phase? If so, enjoy! If not, reverse the speaker leads on one amp

Thx!

no prob,

also, if there's hum, make sure both amps are plugged into the same wall receptacle/power strip, etc.

[Larsongs]

Question? What are you trying to accomplish Sound wise? Is there something different re; the Sound going from Guitar Input from Amp #1 to Guitar Input on Amp #2 than it would be using an A/B Box? (Other than the A/B Box being able to switch from one Amp to the other Amp or play both simultaneously?)

Also, do the different Amps individual Ratings & Ohm Ratings enter into it?

Thanks,

L

[Vibramate]

Question? What are you trying to accomplish Sound wise? Is there something different re; the Sound going from Guitar Input from Amp #1 to Guitar Input on Amp #2 than it would be using an A/B Box? (Other than the A/B Box being able to switch from one Amp to the other Amp or play both simultaneously?)

Also, do the different Amps individual Ratings & Ohm Ratings enter into it?

Thanks,

L

As I said earlier, putting the amps in series (in this case from the input of the first amp, to the input of the second amp) allows for experimenting with gain staging. And what I mean by that, is that you can kind of use the first amp as a preamp or just an effects unit. Think of the first amp as a pedal, thats basically what you are doing. You can't do this with a A/B switcher.

And what comes to the different wattages and ohm ratings... I don't know.

I reckon the ohm ratings aren't a thing to be concerned about since we are just using "audio out" and not the speaker out, if you know what I mean. The wattages however, I was worried about too, since I'm using a 120 watt head into a 15 watt combo. I guess that it doesn't matter if you just don't crank the first amp. Again, if you think of the first amp as a pedal, I wouldn't crank the volume on my loudest fuzzes either, so why would I do it with a device that's way more powerful and unleashes a full spectrum of frequensies.

[Larsongs]

Let us know how it works out for you. I'd like to try that approach but concerned about blowing out an Amp or 2.... I'll wait for your report.

Thanks,

L

[somanytoys]

I always run multiple amps, 2 at a minimum and right now usually 5 on guitar.

But I always run them in parallel, never in series I typically use very good splitters that have an isolation transformer and a phase inverter for the 2nd amp (much easier for me than rewiring speaker leads). I've read a lot about chaining amps in series, usually way in the past (like EVH, Tom Schultz, etc.) but I'm not overly confident that's something that I really want/need to do in this day and age, especially at the lower volumes that I usually play at. Maybe I'm missing out on something really cool, though.

I use several types of preamps with my bass amps, but I only either go preamp into a poweramp or preamp into the receive jack of the loop of a regular head, bypassing its preamp. I have a Rusty Box pedal, that is either a pedal or a preamp, and it specifically says not to use it in preamp mode into another preamp, because of the signal it generates. But that's opposite of what it sounds like yours is set up for.

Anyway, it seems like the main thing to note in your situation would be what levels the Peavey is pushing out of that signal (z level or power?), and if it's okay in general to load that type of signal into a tube preamp. It sounds like it should be within tolerance if it's specifically made to do that, but I would be a bit scared. It seems like it would be pretty easy to overload the pre-amp if it puts out more signal than the preamp can handle. I would think that would go before the power amp stage, but I don't know. Tubes can also be much more delicate and reactionary than solid state equipment.

If it's something that you want to continue to do, and you have any issues with hum or phase, I would suggest getting something with a phase inverter. I don't konw if you would need an isolating transformer as well, and I guess it doesn't necessarily have to be an AB/Y splitter for a series application. But if you ever decide to go parallel instead, that's a good way to do it.

[spiffy chap]

I always run multiple amps, 2 at a minimum and right now usually 5 on guitar.

But I always run them in parallel, never in series I typically use very good splitters that have an isolation transformer and a phase inverter for the 2nd amp (much easier for me than rewiring speaker leads). I've read a lot about chaining amps in series, usually way in the past (like EVH, Tom Schultz, etc.) but I'm not overly confident that's something that I really want/need to do in this day and age, especially at the lower volumes that I usually play at. Maybe I'm missing out on something really cool, though.

I use several types of preamps with my bass amps, but I only either go preamp into a poweramp or preamp into the receive jack of the loop of a regular head, bypassing its preamp. I have a Rusty Box pedal, that is either a pedal or a preamp, and it specifically says not to use it in preamp mode into another preamp, because of the signal it generates. But that's opposite of what it sounds like yours is set up for.

Anyway, it seems like the main thing to note in your situation would be what levels the Peavey is pushing out of that signal (z level or power?), and if it's okay in general to load that type of signal into a tube preamp. It sounds like it should be within tolerance if it's specifically made to do that, but I would be a bit scared. It seems like it would be pretty easy to overload the pre-amp if it puts out more signal than the preamp can handle. I would think that would go before the power amp stage, but I don't know. Tubes can also be much more delicate and reactionary than solid state equipment.

If it's something that you want to continue to do, and you have any issues with hum or phase, I would suggest getting something with a phase inverter. I don't konw if you would need an isolating transformer as well, and I guess it doesn't necessarily have to be an AB/Y splitter for a series application. But if you ever decide to go parallel instead, that's a good way to do it.

What switchers do you use? I need a dual amp both on so I was thinking the Tonebone JX2 or Lehle Little Dual.

[ziess]

I can't speak for the JX2, but I've got both the older (non-boost equipped) Tonebone and a Lehle Little dual. The Lehle is much nicer, better build quality and switches and I'd wager slightly (though it is slight) more transparent when using the isolation transformer.

Looks cooler too.

Tommy.

[spiffy chap]

I can't speak for the JX2, but I've got both the older (non-boost equipped) Tonebone and a Lehle Little dual. The Lehle is much nicer, better build quality and switches and I'd wager slightly (though it is slight) more transparent when using the isolation transformer.

Looks cooler too.

Tommy.

I’ve heard conflicting things about the Lehle and personally I think the options to flip phase and ground loops on the Radial seems to be better. I do like the dual inputs of the Little Dual, but no buffer sucks for me cos I run both the amps on all the time. My understanding is that there be tone loss and volume loss with the Lehle.

[Larsongs]

I plugged my Guitar cord into input #1 & an Out Cord from Input #2 on my Princeton to the Input on my Vox AC10... Nothing happened? Tried adjusting Volume on both Amps up to 10. Still nothing?

Any Thoughts as to why no sound?

[DeathJag]

I always run them in parallel, never in series I typically use very good splitters that have an isolation transformer and a phase inverter for the 2nd amp (much easier for me than rewiring speaker leads).

Awesome! I’m pushing four for my Ultimate Surf Tone (2x Showmans and 2x Twins) and I’ve been holding off getting a big isolation transformer, and instead got several HumX isolators. One Showman is plugged straight to the wall, the other three, the reverb tank, and the Gigrig pedal power are all plugged in through HumX adaptors.

I’m curious what gear you’re using? The phase reverse too, I think one Showman is wired reverse.

[somanytoys]

Sorry, I didn't see these posts to respond.

I have the Radial Tonebone Switchbone, the Radial headlight (1 in, 4 outs), the Fulltone Truepath ABY-ST and a Lehle 1 @ 3.

The Switchbone is very cool, it's an AB/Y that has an isolated transformer, a boost that can be used as a gain boost or a selectable mid-humped boost or as a mute, a polarity switch & a ground lift for out2, and a drag feature, that helps your guitar seem like it's more plugged directly into the amp (response), not so isolated from your amp. It comes with its own adapter, and I don't know if you can use a 15v plug from a powerbrick or not, I just use their adapter.

I don't think that the Headlight has isolated transformers, but I'm not sure - I haven't really noticed any problems with it, though. It's got one input and 4 outs, and each channel except for #1 has individual polarity and ground lift switches, and it has the drag option as well. With the left footswitch, you can choose to have all 4 outs on at once (or however many you actually have plugged in), or click it to use the right footswitch to cycle through each of the outs individually. On the "all 4 outs" mode with the left footswitch, there's a switch that chooses the "all 4" mode, or a mute for the input to stop all signals. I'm pretty sure I just use a 9v plug from a powerbrick on this one, but it could have its own adapter.

The Fulltone is an AB/Y that has an isolated transformer on out B, selectable individual JFET buffers (on/off) for each out, and a polarity and ground lift for B. It can run on a 9v plug or an 18v plug; I run a 9v plug from a powerbrick, and plug that into an Xotic voltage doubler, and run it at 18v. Fulltone also sells 18v adapters - one comes with the pedal, but I can't remember if it's 9v or 18v. (Fulltone's true stereo tremolo is awesome, too, I have 2 of those, and they just came out with a smaller version).

The Lehle is just a 1 in and 3 out selector, no isolated transformer, like their Dual or their P-Split have. It's nice, and expensive, but it doesn't isolate, that's my only gripe with it. I do get ground loops with it, but I fixed that (next paragraph). Lehle makes very good stuff, I also have their Parallel-L that's very nice. The 1 @ 3 can run from 9v to 20v, using a regular plug. I think I just use a 9v from a powerbrick, or maybe I use that into an Xotic voltage doubler for 18v on that, too, I don't remember right off.

I recently got an Ebtech Hum Eliminator (HE 2 XLR, I think?) to remove ground loop hum (the 2 channel version with XLR and 1/4"), and it works nicely on my bass amps with the Lehle, but that's all I've tried it with. I'd like to check out the HumX, because that's supposed to get to the core of the problem right at the plug, but the Eliminator works well and I think is only about $80-100 for the 2 channel, and it's passive (no power required), They also make an 8 channel rack version, but they have 2 versions, and the are only either all XLR or all 1/4" connectors, not both.

As far as best, I'd say It's kind of a tossup between the Fulltone and the Switchbone. The Switchbone has more features, but I don't really use them much. The individual buffers for each channel are nice on the Fulltone, for when I run fuzzes after the split. The other 2 are mostly for sending more than 2 signals out, nice but not isolated.

This is the way I currently use all of these, in case this helps:

I use the headlight to send my original guitar signal through outs 1 & 2 to 2 pedalboard chains, into 2 amps. The 3rd out goes to the Switchbone on another pedalboard, into 2 more chains and out to 2 amps. The 4th out, I either send to a couple of pedals and into another amp, or out to the Fulltone, that splits it into 2 more chains and into 2 other amps. So I have either 5 or 6 separate chains into individual amps going at the same time, depending on which I send the 4th out signal to. I can choose the first 2 amps individually with the headlight, and by choosing 3 or 4 on the Headlight, I can use the footswitches on the Switchbone or the Fulltone to isolate just one of those amps. It's a lot of control, which is necessary for tuning in chains. The 4 main pedal chains are all controlled using Decibel 11 Pedal Palletes, that are all midi'd together and programmed individually for its chain. that way I hit one footswitch and all 4 go to a programmed pattern of pedals, then I hit a 2nd footswitch and they all switch to a 2nd programmed pattern for each chain, etc.

I also use a Pigtronix looper that I record bass loops on, and I send the signal from it into the Lehle, and send those 3 signals into 3 bass amps, using pedals on one of the signals. And now I isolate 2 of the signals using the Ebtech HE-2 XLR, and it makes a big difference in the ground loop, and cheaper than using something like the Lehle P-Split.

If you don't need more than an AB/Y split, the Switchbone and the Fulltone are both really great, I'd say it mostly matters what features are most important to you. Both use isolation transformers; the Fulltone having the choice of buffer on/off on each channel is nice, if you want to use a germanium fuzz in one or both of the chains right after the split, or leave them on for a buffer at the beginning of the chain. The Switchbone is nice if you would like to have a gain, mid boost or mute option, and the drag doesn't seem like just a gimmick, it seems to have some effect.

Sorry, pretty wordy, but I thought I'd put in as much info as possible for you guys. I hope it helps.

[somanytoys]

I always run them in parallel, never in series I typically use very good splitters that have an isolation transformer and a phase inverter for the 2nd amp (much easier for me than rewiring speaker leads).

Awesome! I’m pushing four for my Ultimate Surf Tone (2x Showmans and 2x Twins) and I’ve been holding off getting a big isolation transformer, and instead got several HumX isolators. One Showman is plugged straight to the wall, the other three, the reverb tank, and the Gigrig pedal power are all plugged in through HumX adaptors.

I’m curious what gear you’re using? The phase reverse too, I think one Showman is wired reverse.

Since you already have the HumX adapters, you may want to try the Radial Headlight, I think it's between $150 - 200. Channels 2-4 have individual polarity switches, so you should be able to reverse the polarity on the one Showman, or any of the others if they happen to get out of phase. Just be sure that the amp fed from channel 1 isn't reversed, and you'll have control over the other 3 amps' polarity.

You may also want to consider using a Furman or other powerstrip that is surge protected, if you aren't already using something like that. You can use the HumX on that into the wall first, and then plug everything else into the strip. You can use the HumX on anything else that you plug into the strip, if you're still getting any ground loops on anything.

The main thing with that is to protect your equipment from power surges, amps and pedals, especially that one amp that you have plugged directly into the wall - I don't think that the HumX is a surge protector, but I'm not positive. Using the HumX on the powerstrip itself should help stop any ground loops from starting, so that might free some of the other ones up for you (may not). I'm not sure if those surge protector powerstrips will help with brownouts, that might take a power conditioner - but that's another expensive rabbit hole.

[somanytoys]

I plugged my Guitar cord into input #1 & an Out Cord from Input #2 on my Princeton to the Input on my Vox AC10... Nothing happened? Tried adjusting Volume on both Amps up to 10. Still nothing?

Any Thoughts as to why no sound?

I don't know enough about this to give you an answer. That just seems counter-intuitive to me, because they're all inputs, but I'm no expert and some amps may be built for doing exactly that.

What I have done for my bass, is I would go from my effects loop send from one amp, into another amp or into a pre-amp into a power amp. But I have no experience in how to daisy chain 2 amps like that. Seems like it might be cool, though.

[somanytoys]

I can't speak for the JX2, but I've got both the older (non-boost equipped) Tonebone and a Lehle Little dual. The Lehle is much nicer, better build quality and switches and I'd wager slightly (though it is slight) more transparent when using the isolation transformer.

Looks cooler too.

Tommy.

I’ve heard conflicting things about the Lehle and personally I think the options to flip phase and ground loops on the Radial seems to be better. I do like the dual inputs of the Little Dual, but no buffer sucks for me cos I run both the amps on all the time. My understanding is that there be tone loss and volume loss with the Lehle.

I do notice a drop in volume in each amp for bass, as I turn another channel on, using the Lehle 1 @ 3, and probably losing some tone along with it as well. The Little Dual may not do this since it has an isolated transformer, I don't know.

The JX2 Switchbone is very nice, but it's only got a phase switch for channel 2; not sure if the ground lift is only for channel 2 or the whole pedal, but using ground lifts can be dangerous. There are better, safer ways, like the Ebtech stuff mentioned above (HumX, Hum Eliminator). And I highly recommend using a surge protector for all of your gear - it's made to stop the surge or take the surge and blow, instead of your expensive gear.

As I said in a post above, if you don't need the boost features on the Switchbone, then from what you're saying here, I'd think that having individual buffers for each channel on the Fulltone AB-Y ST would be something you'd like more. I think it only has the polarity and ground lift for channel B/2, unless the ground lift is for the entire pedal. You can't go wrong with either one of them, the Fulltone just seems to be more in line with what you're describing you want.

[DeathJag]

Wow thanks a lot for that sir! It’s a lot to digest, but I look forward to doing so!

I think lots of my hum isn’t ground loop hum, but rather just old amps being cranked.

I do get a loud pop when I hit the Fulltone SupaTrem 2, but I’m pretty sure that’s not a ground loop. (It’s coming out of a ‘63 6g15 tank which is what I suspect somehow.) I read somewhere someone said to put a buffered pedal before the popping pedal, but I figured the output of the tank is comparable to a buffered pedal. But maybe not? I have not had time to try that yet.