Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.

Make it loud here.
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adamrobertt
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Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.

Post by adamrobertt » Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:40 am

Larsongs wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:12 am
The Specs say it all....

Fender Twin Reverb Tonemaster, 200 Watts to simulate Fender Tube Twin Reverb, 85 Watts....

https://www.zzounds.com/item--FEN2274200

Fender Deluxe Reverb Tonemaster, 100 Watts to simulate Fender Tube Deluxe Reverb, 22 Watts..

https://www.zzounds.com/item--FEN2274100
So you agree that these amps should be plenty loud yes?

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Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.

Post by Larsongs » Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:10 am

adamrobertt wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:40 am
Larsongs wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:12 am
The Specs say it all....

Fender Twin Reverb Tonemaster, 200 Watts to simulate Fender Tube Twin Reverb, 85 Watts....

https://www.zzounds.com/item--FEN2274200

Fender Deluxe Reverb Tonemaster, 100 Watts to simulate Fender Tube Deluxe Reverb, 22 Watts..

https://www.zzounds.com/item--FEN2274100
So you agree that these amps should be plenty loud yes?
That was never my point? My point was that 100 Watt SS (or whatever) isn't as loud as a 100 Watt Tube Amp...

It's good to see Fender upped the Wattage to be comaprable... I still hear the Fizz when these new TM Amps are pushed...

Also, the YouTubes I've watcehd are, understandibly, extremely slanted towards these new Amps.. They're trying to sell them!!!

Time will tell.....

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jorri
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Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.

Post by jorri » Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:32 pm

adamrobertt wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:02 am
jorri wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:34 am
adamrobertt wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:04 pm


I've seen this claim repeated a lot over the years and it simply isn't true. A watt is a watt. Sometimes tube amps can "seem" louder because of the different way they break up... most transistor amps stay very very clean throughout the entire range of volume and this can end up sounding thinner or weaker to the ear... but it's just a perceived difference, not an actual one.

Also, I've noticed that a lot of the early derision around these Tone Master amps is mostly based on old repeated "solid state" tropes like the one above, people even referring to them as "transistor" amps. (Not saying these amps don't have transistors, but it's harkening back to the first transistor amps of the 1960s and it's pretty clear that these amps are very different.) Yeah, these amps are "solid state" in a general way, basically just meaning "not tube." But these amps work in a fundamentally different way than the usual solid state amp that we're used to.

Guitarists are generally kind of morons in the way that we obsessively refuse to adapt to new technologies. Do we really all believe that the only possible way to make a good sounding guitar amp must be with 100 year old technology?
A watt is certainly not just a watt.
A clean watt is comparable. However, as you say, tube amps break up nicely. Even when they are run at what modt would call 'clean' they experience distortion, thus pass the threshold of watts which are measured clean.
Add how this wattage is distributed across frequency.
Add the speaker sensitivity.
Add the gain of the preamp.
And there is a lot of variation.
What about how the cabinet projects too.
A watt is just a watt for sure. I. E. NOT dBspl. And dBspl is not perceived volume, its only a level at particular distance and frequency.
You're actually agreeing with me here. Maybe I wasn't being very articulate. What I'm trying to say is that "wattage" isn't really a good enough way to figure out how loud an amp is, because of all of what you just said, as well as what I said. Especially so with these newer class D and modeling amps.

I doubt that Fender went through such painstaking lengths to recreate every aspect of these amps and didn't think about volume. I'm sure they are just as loud.
Either way, i elaborated or clarified what you were saying then. But no, its not just perceived thinness, tube amps will shift more air for their /rated/ wattage... Well generally because they go beyond their rated wattage, not just usably, but ideally. Sure, its kind of what you are saying as watts is watts, but thats not the watts written on the amp.

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Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.

Post by andy_tchp » Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:36 pm

Speaker efficiency is more important to overall actual volume than the claimed 'watts' stamped on the back regardless.
"I don't know why we asked him to join the band 'cause the rest of us don't like country music all that much; we just like Graham Lee."
David McComb, 1987.

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Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.

Post by jorri » Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:45 am

andy_tchp wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:36 pm
Speaker efficiency is more important to overall actual volume than the claimed 'watts' stamped on the back regardless.
andy_tchp wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:36 pm
Speaker efficiency is more important to overall actual volume than the claimed 'watts' stamped on the back regardless.

To an extent, as their rated efficiency doesnt vary that much. Maybe is within 6db range. Although thats not small I think it wouldnt necessarily amount to double volume in perception. I did have ZT lunchbox with a very quiet 6" for a 200w but thats like a specialised amp thats a practice amp until plugged into a cab.

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Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.

Post by andy_tchp » Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:30 am

jorri wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:45 am
]
andy_tchp wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:36 pm
Speaker efficiency is more important to overall actual volume than the claimed 'watts' stamped on the back regardless.

To an extent, as their rated efficiency doesnt vary that much.
You reckon? I don't.

6dB is massive, a massive massive difference. Even 3dB is a huge difference.

I had a 15 watt THD Univalve paired with a fairly shit 2x12" cab loaded with Celestion Vintage 30s, (100dB@1W,1m).

Was louder than my bandmate's 50W JCM 800 paired with a 4x12 (I think this was loaded with old Fanes?) Comically so. It was too loud, all the time.

Same amp paired with a 4x12 loaded with real-deal '70s Greenbacks (97dB@1W,1m) was perfect, and the best it ever sounded. Though I never measured with an SPL meter, perceived volume with the shitty 2x12 was as good as twice as loud, in spite of having half as many drivers. Go figure.
"I don't know why we asked him to join the band 'cause the rest of us don't like country music all that much; we just like Graham Lee."
David McComb, 1987.

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Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.

Post by jorri » Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:53 am

Well if you are saying 2x at 100db is more than 4x at 97db, those figures are equivalent because you double the speakers. So it must be something else, and i wont deny it,or correct me if i am wrong... Its not 3db difference its 0db difference.

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Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.

Post by andy_tchp » Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:46 pm

jorri wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:53 am
Well if you are saying 2x at 100db is more than 4x at 97db, those figures are equivalent because you double the speakers.
Explain this please?

I'm talking about an actual real world, real life scenario here, where I had half the number of speakers [2] creating far, far more volume (not 'equivalent', not even remotely close) than 4 speakers with just a 3dB difference in their documented efficiency rating. With the Greenbacks the amp could be turned up all the way and sounded great without unbearable volume. Getting even close to that with the V30s was impossible.

Exact same amplifier, signal chain, and room, playing the same songs with the same group. I eagerly await to hear the theoretical 'something else' it must be.

Actually, no, I don't, as I don't care :)

I think I'll steer clear of this thread, as it'd already devolved into a fairly off topic pile of garbage from the last couple of pages onwards, and now we're even further O/T.
"I don't know why we asked him to join the band 'cause the rest of us don't like country music all that much; we just like Graham Lee."
David McComb, 1987.

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Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.

Post by Larsongs » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:34 pm

Regardless of our different opinions I hope Apache Snow is enjoying his new Amp.. That's all that really matters..

L

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Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.

Post by adamrobertt » Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:34 pm

Don't get me wrong, I love tube amps. I own several. But I also really want this amp. I'm really impressed with the clips I've heard and the feature set is perfect for me. I also dream of owning an amp that I can carry around easily. My current tube combo weighs 75 lbs.

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Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.

Post by jorri » Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:28 am

andy_tchp wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:46 pm
jorri wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:53 am
Well if you are saying 2x at 100db is more than 4x at 97db, those figures are equivalent because you double the speakers.
Explain this please?

I'm talking about an actual real world, real life scenario here, where I had half the number of speakers [2] creating far, far more volume (not 'equivalent', not even remotely close) than 4 speakers with just a 3dB difference in their documented efficiency rating. With the Greenbacks the amp could be turned up all the way and sounded great without unbearable volume. Getting even close to that with the V30s was impossible.

Exact same amplifier, signal chain, and room, playing the same songs with the same group. I eagerly await to hear the theoretical 'something else' it must be.

Actually, no, I don't, as I don't care :)

I think I'll steer clear of this thread, as it'd already devolved into a fairly off topic pile of garbage from the last couple of pages onwards, and now we're even further O/T.
Uh.. Ok.. Plain fucking rude and pissy but if you want to be right all the time...

Yes, double the number of speakers is a 3db difference. Simple.

So a cab with 3db more sensitivity per speaker vs. One with doubpe the speakers?

100+100=103
97+97+97+97=103

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Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.

Post by jorri » Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:32 am

And i will add that by 'something else' i mean some other spec, of potential many, that isnt sensitivity.

I dunno, thought it would be interesting to find out what that was if sensitivity is EQUIVALENT (if anything, more on the 412) :D :-*

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Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.

Post by andy_tchp » Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:24 pm

Maybe just go and experiment with/experience this stuff for yourself.

And 'fucking rude'? I think the 'thin skin' discussion thread is in the 'New and Reissue' section mate ;)
"I don't know why we asked him to join the band 'cause the rest of us don't like country music all that much; we just like Graham Lee."
David McComb, 1987.

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Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.

Post by jorri » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:43 am

Whooosh

Nope, still pissy.
:k

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Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.

Post by apache snow » Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:12 pm


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