Fuzz -> Compressor

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beninma
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Fuzz -> Compressor

Post by beninma » Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:06 am

This is my new favorite trick.

I can't believe how long it took me to figure this out.

I've had an Op Amp Big Muff Reissue since shortly after it came out. Always easy to use it in an out of control way but I've always been trying to figure out how to use it in more subtle & controllable ways, to the point I thought I needed different fuzz pedal(s).

If you roll the volume down on the guitar that does work but it gets darker, especially on the neck pickup. I used to have a Tele and it was very tricky to use cause the guitar got darker too. I have a G&L Doheny now and it has less of an issue. But there's such a massive volume difference with the Muff and it doesn't like it's volume turned down too much that it's just really hard to use. If I was to turn it on and off for different parts the guitar volume would need a huge adjustment each time.

But I've had an Orange Kongpressor too for some time. (Optical compressor that's really quiet). If I set the Kongpressor up to be pretty squishy but then turn it's volume down it completely tames the Muff and I can leave the guitar volume cranked up with out a massive volume spike and it just smooths the Big Muff out amazingly... it makes it usable for way more types of music.

It also combines fine with a dirty amp... then the volume on the compressor can take over how much amp distortion you want mixed in.

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Re: Fuzz -> Compressor

Post by stevejamsecono » Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:19 am

beninma wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:06 am
This is my new favorite trick.

I can't believe how long it took me to figure this out.

I've had an Op Amp Big Muff Reissue since shortly after it came out. Always easy to use it in an out of control way but I've always been trying to figure out how to use it in more subtle & controllable ways, to the point I thought I needed different fuzz pedal(s).

If you roll the volume down on the guitar that does work but it gets darker, especially on the neck pickup. I used to have a Tele and it was very tricky to use cause the guitar got darker too. I have a G&L Doheny now and it has less of an issue. But there's such a massive volume difference with the Muff and it doesn't like it's volume turned down too much that it's just really hard to use. If I was to turn it on and off for different parts the guitar volume would need a huge adjustment each time.

But I've had an Orange Kongpressor too for some time. (Optical compressor that's really quiet). If I set the Kongpressor up to be pretty squishy but then turn it's volume down it completely tames the Muff and I can leave the guitar volume cranked up with out a massive volume spike and it just smooths the Big Muff out amazingly... it makes it usable for way more types of music.

It also combines fine with a dirty amp... then the volume on the compressor can take over how much amp distortion you want mixed in.
Innnnteresting. I'm gonna try moving my Rams Head RI in front of my Vice Grip and see if it takes to this. I found it pretty unusable on the other side of the chain.
And you find out life isn't like that
It's so hard to understand
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beninma
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Re: Fuzz -> Compressor

Post by beninma » Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:51 am

Yah this is super weird but I have been running the compressor later than is dictated by typical pedal order dogma for a while. My current order is Fuzz -> Overdrive -> Phaser -> Compressor -> Noise Suppression -> Octave/Shift -> Tuner.

If you put the compressor first it's going to make everything noisier I think.

If you put the Fuzz first, turn the volume on the Fuzz up, and then bring the volume on the compressor back down it will squash the noise down till you can't even hear it. The way I'm doing it the two pedals stacked completely eliminates the white noise that the Big Muff generates.

Now all that said the Kongpressor is optical. I wouldn't be surprised if this trick fails with OTA -based compressors because they're so noisy in comparison.

The only other Compressor I've owned is the Keeley Compressor+. It was basically unusable with any gain compared to the Kongpressor. That style of compressor seems to be used mostly with super clean amps for a reason. This was an amazing discovery to me as every reviewer says the Keeley is whisper quiet.

This whole thing is kind of a David Gilmour type tone.. it's not going to work for something really hairy and crazy. The compressor really smooths things out. You'd never want to play a Jack White type out of control part this way.

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Re: Fuzz -> Compressor

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:18 pm

beninma wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:51 am
Yah this is super weird but I have been running the compressor later than is dictated by typical pedal order dogma for a while.
I always understood that typical pedal order suggesting the compressor first (or very early) so your signal is evened out before hitting any other pedals. BUT. For the longest time I used to run a compressor after my gains, so I totally understand the draw. Whatever works best for you!!

beninma wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:51 am
This whole thing is kind of a David Gilmour type tone.. it's not going to work for something really hairy and crazy. The compressor really smooths things out. You'd never want to play a Jack White type out of control part this way.
It very much is. I actually discovered a similar trick from Bjorn from Gilmourish. He found out years ago that David Gilmour ran a Colorsound Power Boost after a Muff for exactly that reason. You can listen to the difference it makes here. It's very much night and day in my opinion.

Apologies if everyone already knows this, but there are things I occasionally repeat because you never know who knows what, you know? If you have a really loud pedal, and have a pedal after it with the volume turned lower, the second pedal will dictate the final volume. It sounds obvious, but it was forever before I realized that. I think in your case, the compressor does other things than just controlling the volume, but I think the end result is similar concept. I have a Boss LS-2 and just realized that I could do this with the volume on each channel, and the reason that's interesting to me is that some fuzzes don't sound all that great unless the pedal volume is really high (fuzz face, etc.). The option of having a fuzz cranked and sounding glorious, but controlling the volume with something else is really a neat idea.
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Re: Fuzz -> Compressor

Post by jorri » Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:12 am

beninma wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:51 am
Yah this is super weird but I have been running the compressor later than is dictated by typical pedal order dogma for a while. My current order is Fuzz -> Overdrive -> Phaser -> Compressor -> Noise Suppression -> Octave/Shift -> Tuner.

If you put the compressor first it's going to make everything noisier I think.

If you put the Fuzz first, turn the volume on the Fuzz up, and then bring the volume on the compressor back down it will squash the noise down till you can't even hear it. The way I'm doing it the two pedals stacked completely eliminates the white noise that the Big Muff generates.

Now all that said the Kongpressor is optical. I wouldn't be surprised if this trick fails with OTA -based compressors because they're so noisy in comparison.

The only other Compressor I've owned is the Keeley Compressor+. It was basically unusable with any gain compared to the Kongpressor. That style of compressor seems to be used mostly with super clean amps for a reason. This was an amazing discovery to me as every reviewer says the Keeley is whisper quiet.

This whole thing is kind of a David Gilmour type tone.. it's not going to work for something really hairy and crazy. The compressor really smooths things out. You'd never want to play a Jack White type out of control part this way.
First part doesnt sound right to me:
-compressors always bring up noise.
-generally thats because noise is quieter although i have had fuzzes where is not the case
-so it makes the notes quieter because they are louder and thus less of a difference between them
-placing it early usually done because its the place with least noise, presumably.
It can also act as a boost though, giving more consistent input gain.
-distortions compress way more than a compressor it is just they also do it by distorting, still change in dynamic range
-placing it after can give punch or fatness though or any specific control tricks like OP suggestion.
-but seems odd it would be less noisy after. If anything might expect a noise reduction before a pedal (fuzz will be seeing more of your note sustain, rather than hum/buzz as it dies away)...but if its doing it that way i am not telling you not to!

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Re: Fuzz -> Compressor

Post by jorri » Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:14 am

If any gated-ness to the fuzz it could be better havig comp after. Speaking theoretically. A comp bringing noise up to your playing volume would open the gate with noise. Same with noise gates too.

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Re: Fuzz -> Compressor

Post by beninma » Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:01 am

jorri wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:12 am
First part doesnt sound right to me:
-compressors always bring up noise.
-generally thats because noise is quieter although i have had fuzzes where is not the case
-so it makes the notes quieter because they are louder and thus less of a difference between them
-placing it early usually done because its the place with least noise, presumably.
It can also act as a boost though, giving more consistent input gain.
-distortions compress way more than a compressor it is just they also do it by distorting, still change in dynamic range
-placing it after can give punch or fatness though or any specific control tricks like OP suggestion.
-but seems odd it would be less noisy after. If anything might expect a noise reduction before a pedal (fuzz will be seeing more of your note sustain, rather than hum/buzz as it dies away)...but if its doing it that way i am not telling you not to!
Some of this is only true if you're talking the MXR/Dynacomp style compressors I think. (OTA)

That style of compressor maximizes gain when the signal is lowest (extremely low threshold) which is why they are so noisy into a gainy amp, etc..

This trick I'm talking about only probably works on Optical & studio style compressors which behave differently.. they don't bring up the noise so much because the signal is below their threshold when you're not playing and/or the threshold is adjustable. If you haven't had both types the difference in noise level is pretty wild.

Also this whole thing I'm talking about really relies on being able to turn the volume down below unity on the compressor.. the compressor is not in a usable configuration without the fuzz pedal also being on. That act of turning the volume down on the compressor is what drops the noise out.

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Re: Fuzz -> Compressor

Post by fuzzjunkie » Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:57 pm

Glad you found something that works, but usually you’d want to control the overall volume after a Fuzz or Distortion (or even a Compressor) with:

1- an EQ pedal : can cut or boost the volume and sculpt the overall tone. Use if you don’t want to increase gain, just control volume and tone - Kevin Shields and many others

2- an overdrive : can smooth out the fuzz as well as cut/boost the volume. Use if you want to stack gain stages and maybe an amp style foundation pedal - David Gilmour, (Boost) J Mascis (Cut) and many others

3- a volume pedal : can reduce the volume or roll it back up. Use if you only want to control the volume- Robert Fripp, Robin Guthrie

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Re: Fuzz -> Compressor

Post by jorri » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:12 pm

beninma wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:01 am
jorri wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:12 am
First part doesnt sound right to me:
-compressors always bring up noise.
-generally thats because noise is quieter although i have had fuzzes where is not the case
-so it makes the notes quieter because they are louder and thus less of a difference between them
-placing it early usually done because its the place with least noise, presumably.
It can also act as a boost though, giving more consistent input gain.
-distortions compress way more than a compressor it is just they also do it by distorting, still change in dynamic range
-placing it after can give punch or fatness though or any specific control tricks like OP suggestion.
-but seems odd it would be less noisy after. If anything might expect a noise reduction before a pedal (fuzz will be seeing more of your note sustain, rather than hum/buzz as it dies away)...but if its doing it that way i am not telling you not to!
Some of this is only true if you're talking the MXR/Dynacomp style compressors I think. (OTA)

That style of compressor maximizes gain when the signal is lowest (extremely low threshold) which is why they are so noisy into a gainy amp, etc..

This trick I'm talking about only probably works on Optical & studio style compressors which behave differently.. they don't bring up the noise so much because the signal is below their threshold when you're not playing and/or the threshold is adjustable. If you haven't had both types the difference in noise level is pretty wild.

Also this whole thing I'm talking about really relies on being able to turn the volume down below unity on the compressor.. the compressor is not in a usable configuration without the fuzz pedal also being on. That act of turning the volume down on the compressor is what drops the noise out.
I dont know about specific types but any compressor will raise the noise floor relatively after makeup gain is applied. Loud signals become quieter, quiet signals become louder (as makeup gain).
I dont know of the specifics of specific pedals as i am used to these types in a DAW setting with full access to all parameters (maybe that) where optical types just define a flavour to the attack.
As you say, turning below unity resolves that, sort of, since no makeup gain, makedown gain?.
Nonetheless surely is noisier than turning the fuzz volume down alone, qs there is still a reduction in dynamic range whatever the output level is.

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Re: Fuzz -> Compressor

Post by jorri » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:15 pm

jorri wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:12 pm
beninma wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:01 am
jorri wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:12 am
First part doesnt sound right to me:
-compressors always bring up noise.
-generally thats because noise is quieter although i have had fuzzes where is not the case
-so it makes the notes quieter because they are louder and thus less of a difference between them
-placing it early usually done because its the place with least noise, presumably.
It can also act as a boost though, giving more consistent input gain.
-distortions compress way more than a compressor it is just they also do it by distorting, still change in dynamic range
-placing it after can give punch or fatness though or any specific control tricks like OP suggestion.
-but seems odd it would be less noisy after. If anything might expect a noise reduction before a pedal (fuzz will be seeing more of your note sustain, rather than hum/buzz as it dies away)...but if its doing it that way i am not telling you not to!
Some of this is only true if you're talking the MXR/Dynacomp style compressors I think. (OTA)

That style of compressor maximizes gain when the signal is lowest (extremely low threshold) which is why they are so noisy into a gainy amp, etc..

This trick I'm talking about only probably works on Optical & studio style compressors which behave differently.. they don't bring up the noise so much because the signal is below their threshold when you're not playing and/or the threshold is adjustable. If you haven't had both types the difference in noise level is pretty wild.

Also this whole thing I'm talking about really relies on being able to turn the volume down below unity on the compressor.. the compressor is not in a usable configuration without the fuzz pedal also being on. That act of turning the volume down on the compressor is what drops the noise out.
I dont know about specific types but any compressor will raise the noise floor relatively after makeup gain is applied. Loud signals become quieter, quiet signals become louder (as makeup gain).
I dont know of the specifics of specific pedals as i am used to these types in a DAW setting with full access to all parameters (maybe that) where optical types just define a flavour to the attack.
As you say, turning below unity resolves that, sort of, since no makeup gain, makedown gain?.
Nonetheless surely is noisier than turning the fuzz volume down alone, qs there is still a reduction in dynamic range whatever the output level is.
Some 'sustain' types may use 'upwards' compression, faster release, or just be a very strong comp (dry blend parallel perhaps). That could potentially affect noise.
When you reduce a thing with lots of knobs (>6)in the studio to about 2 there must be many variations.

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