starting to think about new monitors
- marqueemoon
- PAT. # 2.972.923
- Posts: 7429
- Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:37 pm
- Location: Seattle
starting to think about new monitors
After 20+ years with passive Yorkville YSM-1s I think it’s time to step up my monitor game.
Things I like about the YSMs are they have pretty good bass extension for a 6.5”, and what’s there is fairly honest. I also like the soft dome tweeter.
For my purposes they have been ok. I know them and that’s important, and some shortcomings should be chalked up to the room and my own hamhandedness.
Overall things translate ok, but it’s kind of like looking through a dirty window. I can usually get a good baseline sound, but it can be hard to tell how much I can push things.
My tentative plan is to unload some bike stuff in the early spring and roll that into a monitor purchase.
How much radical honesty could I get for, say $500-$1K.
Things I like about the YSMs are they have pretty good bass extension for a 6.5”, and what’s there is fairly honest. I also like the soft dome tweeter.
For my purposes they have been ok. I know them and that’s important, and some shortcomings should be chalked up to the room and my own hamhandedness.
Overall things translate ok, but it’s kind of like looking through a dirty window. I can usually get a good baseline sound, but it can be hard to tell how much I can push things.
My tentative plan is to unload some bike stuff in the early spring and roll that into a monitor purchase.
How much radical honesty could I get for, say $500-$1K.
- Dok
- PAT. # 2.972.923
- Posts: 2236
- Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:39 pm
- Location: Ojai
Re: starting to think about new monitors
You can do great in that price range... if your room acoustics are truly sorted, otherwise I'm not sure it's worth upgrading. How willing are you to go down that rabbit hole? It's not terrible if you're willing to change things up and spend a little bit of extra $$.
Local milk person
- BTL
- PAT. # 2.972.923
- Posts: 1477
- Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:24 pm
- Contact:
Re: starting to think about new monitors
Yeah, room treatment and good ears seem to be at the heart of things. Otherwise, you may be chasing your tail. That said, I'm curious to hear other perspectives.
Owner, Lowe Custom Guitars
- marqueemoon
- PAT. # 2.972.923
- Posts: 7429
- Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:37 pm
- Location: Seattle
Re: starting to think about new monitors
This would be part of some other minor upgrade stuff, so that could include some panels or bass traps or whatever, but shit is always going to be temporary.Dok wrote: ↑Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:21 pmYou can do great in that price range... if your room acoustics are truly sorted, otherwise I'm not sure it's worth upgrading. How willing are you to go down that rabbit hole? It's not terrible if you're willing to change things up and spend a little bit of extra $$.
Doesn’t sound terrible, but it’s a basement.
- øøøøøøø
- PAT. # 2.972.923
- Posts: 6000
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:26 pm
- Location: Los Angeles
- Contact:
Re: starting to think about new monitors
With inexpensive monitoring in adapted spaces, the most important thing is getting something that works for you and then learning it.
The monitors I use at home are far less expensive than the ATCs we use throughout our NYC space (I won't even bother disclosing the make and model, because I wouldn't recommend them for someone else--I just know them)
I've been listening and working on these raggedy things for 15 years. I know what they do and how to make them translate. I could afford something better, but not better-enough to justify making the switch (and enduring the learning curve of another "okay" set of monitors).
I'm considering moving to ATCs at home because I've logged many, many hours with three different models in their line. But I'd probably need a bit of a windfall to justify that investment right now, so I'm currently sticking with what I know.
If there's anything I'd suggest broadly, it's to find a waterfall plot of whatever you're considering. Time domain issues (like port resonances/ringing) are some of the hardest things to learn and mentally compensate (at least for me).
For whatever it's worth, I've never been in an adapted space that I'd call "truly sorted" acoustically. Practical limitations (square footage, dimensions/mode distribution, structural issues, etc) always interfere long before we get to "great" (usually well before we even get to "good"). But most spaces can be improved, and the acoustic environment really is the biggest part of monitoring.
Do you have Room EQ Wizard and a measurement mic?
The monitors I use at home are far less expensive than the ATCs we use throughout our NYC space (I won't even bother disclosing the make and model, because I wouldn't recommend them for someone else--I just know them)
I've been listening and working on these raggedy things for 15 years. I know what they do and how to make them translate. I could afford something better, but not better-enough to justify making the switch (and enduring the learning curve of another "okay" set of monitors).
I'm considering moving to ATCs at home because I've logged many, many hours with three different models in their line. But I'd probably need a bit of a windfall to justify that investment right now, so I'm currently sticking with what I know.
If there's anything I'd suggest broadly, it's to find a waterfall plot of whatever you're considering. Time domain issues (like port resonances/ringing) are some of the hardest things to learn and mentally compensate (at least for me).
For whatever it's worth, I've never been in an adapted space that I'd call "truly sorted" acoustically. Practical limitations (square footage, dimensions/mode distribution, structural issues, etc) always interfere long before we get to "great" (usually well before we even get to "good"). But most spaces can be improved, and the acoustic environment really is the biggest part of monitoring.
Do you have Room EQ Wizard and a measurement mic?
- Dok
- PAT. # 2.972.923
- Posts: 2236
- Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:39 pm
- Location: Ojai
Re: starting to think about new monitors
A basement can still be a great space! Any idea what your room dimensions are? Honestly a huge part of knowing what's possible comes down to a couple of things: 1) Do you have enough space to get your monitors on separate stands that are not on top of your desk, and b) can the front part of your room (i.e. the shorter wall where the desk and speakers/listening position all are) be arranged symmetrically from L to R, as in can you get your shit centered on that wall (no corners or doors or windows preventing you from doing so)?
I've moved three times in the last 17 months (long story) and have successfully set up my listening/mixing environment each time with only temporary acoustic treatment in fairly small spaces, just bedrooms. As Brad mentioned there are going to be problems with any small room but if you are willing to measure and move stuff around (and then measure some more), you can really overcome many of them enough to where your room isn't completely getting in your way.
I use a (dumbed-down, DIY version of a) protocol called the Phantom Focus system designed by an acoustician named Carl Tatz. He's got pretty much all the tools you need to do this right on his website: https://carltatzdesign.com/acoustic-too ... xample.pdf. You plug your room dimensions into the axial mode calculator, which is going to calculate your room modes, and then you put your speakers and listening position in the spots with the least cancellation according to the calculator. It's a really great starting point, and then you can start to measure and calibrate and figure out where to place your subwoofer and acoustic treatment.
There's more to it once you get to that point, but it's something you can try out without spending any money and I swear by it. I went absolutely crazy mixing my last record trying to figure out why my mixes weren't translating and this allowed me to quit banging my head against the wall (for the mixing part, at least).
I've moved three times in the last 17 months (long story) and have successfully set up my listening/mixing environment each time with only temporary acoustic treatment in fairly small spaces, just bedrooms. As Brad mentioned there are going to be problems with any small room but if you are willing to measure and move stuff around (and then measure some more), you can really overcome many of them enough to where your room isn't completely getting in your way.
I use a (dumbed-down, DIY version of a) protocol called the Phantom Focus system designed by an acoustician named Carl Tatz. He's got pretty much all the tools you need to do this right on his website: https://carltatzdesign.com/acoustic-too ... xample.pdf. You plug your room dimensions into the axial mode calculator, which is going to calculate your room modes, and then you put your speakers and listening position in the spots with the least cancellation according to the calculator. It's a really great starting point, and then you can start to measure and calibrate and figure out where to place your subwoofer and acoustic treatment.
There's more to it once you get to that point, but it's something you can try out without spending any money and I swear by it. I went absolutely crazy mixing my last record trying to figure out why my mixes weren't translating and this allowed me to quit banging my head against the wall (for the mixing part, at least).
Local milk person
- øøøøøøø
- PAT. # 2.972.923
- Posts: 6000
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:26 pm
- Location: Los Angeles
- Contact:
Re: starting to think about new monitors
And this is the best way to frame it IMO.
I've used the AMROC room mode calculator and it really does give lots of information. But setting up a measurement mic and running REW (freeware) can really give you some detailed insights into what your problem areas are in practice, then you can set about addressing those issues in a targeted way
- Dok
- PAT. # 2.972.923
- Posts: 2236
- Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:39 pm
- Location: Ojai
Re: starting to think about new monitors
Totally, and that's why I think it's important to start with some kind of protocol that gives you a shot at addressing some issues before you even spend a dollar, then absolutely get that measurement mic and REW. There's lots of dogma and bad info (including in the instruction manuals of some monitors) that start with hard and fast rules like "your speakers must be at least 1 meter away from your front wall" and "you don't need a subwoofer as long as your monitors extend low enough or are really big" that I think can really start people off in a detrimental fashion, lord knows it did that to me.øøøøøøø wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:42 amAnd this is the best way to frame it IMO.
I've used the AMROC room mode calculator and it really does give lots of information. But setting up a measurement mic and running REW (freeware) can really give you some detailed insights into what your problem areas are in practice, then you can set about addressing those issues in a targeted way
You can upgrade monitors all day long chasing undefined "improvements" but you'll just never get them if there's a 12dB null at 125Hz in your listening position. I'm a firm believer that low end monitors in a decent room are entirely preferable to top of the line monitors in a bad room.
Local milk person
- Dok
- PAT. # 2.972.923
- Posts: 2236
- Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:39 pm
- Location: Ojai
Re: starting to think about new monitors
In the interest of not derailing this thread I started a new one detailing the method I use for determining speaker placement. A work in progress: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=121324&p=1703902#p1703902
Local milk person
- marqueemoon
- PAT. # 2.972.923
- Posts: 7429
- Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:37 pm
- Location: Seattle
Re: starting to think about new monitors
After a little research the Neumann KH 120s are looking pretty appealing and I can get a little bit of a deal on them, though it would still be a considerable stretch.
Going to play around with placing the current Yorkvilles in the space using the info in Dok's thread this weekend though. I installed a whole wall of shelving on Sunday so I have actual floor space again and therefore choices for where to put things.
Going to play around with placing the current Yorkvilles in the space using the info in Dok's thread this weekend though. I installed a whole wall of shelving on Sunday so I have actual floor space again and therefore choices for where to put things.
- marqueemoon
- PAT. # 2.972.923
- Posts: 7429
- Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:37 pm
- Location: Seattle
Re: starting to think about new monitors
So, after a long time I’ve started reshuffling the room. After bringing the speakers and my listening position out from the wall I feel like the bass response is much improved.
That said I think the 6.5” 2 way YSM-1s are just too large for nearfield listening. The stereo image isn’t great.
The more I do this the more I think the main value of larger speakers for me at least is to make sure the amount of bass is proportional/ appropriate.
Given that I am broke as hell at the moment and budget powered monitors really don’t excite me I am conducting an experiment with some unconventional consumer world speakers to see how mixes translate. Stay tuned.
That said I think the 6.5” 2 way YSM-1s are just too large for nearfield listening. The stereo image isn’t great.
The more I do this the more I think the main value of larger speakers for me at least is to make sure the amount of bass is proportional/ appropriate.
Given that I am broke as hell at the moment and budget powered monitors really don’t excite me I am conducting an experiment with some unconventional consumer world speakers to see how mixes translate. Stay tuned.
- Steadyriot.
- PAT. # 2.972.923
- Posts: 1279
- Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:16 pm
- Location: The Netherlands
Re: starting to think about new monitors
SOS did a cool article on that a few years back. I'd still like to try a set of DM 303's after that. They're pretty cheap on the used market.marqueemoon wrote: ↑Thu Sep 08, 2022 12:15 pmSo, after a long time I’ve started reshuffling the room. After bringing the speakers and my listening position out from the wall I feel like the bass response is much improved.
That said I think the 6.5” 2 way YSM-1s are just too large for nearfield listening. The stereo image isn’t great.
The more I do this the more I think the main value of larger speakers for me at least is to make sure the amount of bass is proportional/ appropriate.
Given that I am broke as hell at the moment and budget powered monitors really don’t excite me I am conducting an experiment with some unconventional consumer world speakers to see how mixes translate. Stay tuned.
"If someone duetted with a Bald Eagle, they could rule the Country charts from here to eternity." ~shadowplay
- marqueemoon
- PAT. # 2.972.923
- Posts: 7429
- Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:37 pm
- Location: Seattle
Re: starting to think about new monitors
I skimmed that. Pretty interesting. Not sure I’ve heard those specific B&Ws.Steadyriot. wrote: ↑Fri Sep 09, 2022 4:15 amSOS did a cool article on that a few years back. I'd still like to try a set of DM 303's after that. They're pretty cheap on the used market.
I have heard those Wharfedales. Not perfect, but better than a lot of so-called monitors.
I did some preliminary mixes of some practice space recordings on the new option last night. Initial impressions are pretty positive. I feel like things are well balanced, and particular concerns I had revealed themselves on other systems. For example on a few things I felt my own guitar was too quiet, and listening elsewhere confirmed that.
I have plans to pick up another set of these mystery speakers tonight.
- stevejamsecono
- PAT. # 2.972.923
- Posts: 4577
- Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:55 am
- Location: Brooklyn, NYC
- Contact:
Re: starting to think about new monitors
Definitely recommend some measurement software. I used to rep for Sonarworks a few years back and Reference 4 was a pretty badass way to make the best of you room/existing monitors.
Monitor-wise it seems like there's a lot of good stuff out there, so I doubt you'll steer wrong if you trust your ears. If you have a bit of bank and don't mind passive, Amphion have a very strong rep and are worth checking out.
Monitor-wise it seems like there's a lot of good stuff out there, so I doubt you'll steer wrong if you trust your ears. If you have a bit of bank and don't mind passive, Amphion have a very strong rep and are worth checking out.
And you find out life isn't like that
It's so hard to understand
Why the world is your oyster but your future's a clam
Resident Yamaha Fanboy
COYS
It's so hard to understand
Why the world is your oyster but your future's a clam
Resident Yamaha Fanboy
COYS
- Nico
- PAT. # 2.972.923
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:30 pm
Re: starting to think about new monitors
I've been using old Yamaha's (MSP5, I think) for the last 20 years, they still rock and they'll follow me til the end as it's my main reference.
For me, there's not anything better for nearfield monitoring. I tried Focal, Genelec, Tannoy and other speakers. My friend had Yorkville's like yours and thought they were boomy, I agreed.
For me, KRK's are too bass heavy, so are the Tannoys in general, Genelec is way too fatiguing on the highs. Focals are good but a little sloppy for my taste. The Yamaha's (not the new-ish series of different sizes MSP, the old original black ones) are just right. At the cheap price they go for on eBay, i'd really consider getting a pair.
For me, there's not anything better for nearfield monitoring. I tried Focal, Genelec, Tannoy and other speakers. My friend had Yorkville's like yours and thought they were boomy, I agreed.
For me, KRK's are too bass heavy, so are the Tannoys in general, Genelec is way too fatiguing on the highs. Focals are good but a little sloppy for my taste. The Yamaha's (not the new-ish series of different sizes MSP, the old original black ones) are just right. At the cheap price they go for on eBay, i'd really consider getting a pair.