Factory Refin Value

Discussion of vintage Jazzmasters, Jaguars, Bass VIs, Electric XIIs and any other offset-waist instruments.
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señormisterioso
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Factory Refin Value

Post by señormisterioso » Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:39 am

I know this is probably very subjective. I understand that in order to make the right assessment you may have too look at a case to case basis.

Question to the collector type folk:

Do old factory refin (60s) of pre-cbs guitars retain the same value?
Do you immediately consider them lesser (yet not the same as a modern refin)?
You refrain from having an opinion till you have them in your hands?

Thank you!

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Re: Factory Refin Value

Post by gringopig » Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:56 am

Any refinish lessens value immediately. You can refret and change the nut to your heart's content but swapping pickups or hardware and especially refinishing makes the value go away for the collector. For the player, that's ideal because then they don't pay for an original guitar and I would say half value for a refinish.

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Re: Factory Refin Value

Post by mbene085 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:20 am

If you have provenance, you can probably get the same money for a factory refin as for a stock sunburst.

Even if the refin is a custom colour, you won't get custom colour prices for one.

If it's a "suspected" factory refin, value is the same as any other refinish, which is significantly below an original sunburst.

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Re: Factory Refin Value

Post by señormisterioso » Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:40 am

mbene085 wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:20 am


If it's a "suspected" factory refin, value is the same as any other refinish, which is significantly below an original sunburst.
Thank you! That’s what I was going after I’m looking at a couple of JMs that look like they might have gone back to the factory in the 60s or the they were refinished before they left. So in your opinion they should fetch less than a sunburst for that same year correct?

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Re: Factory Refin Value

Post by gringopig » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:16 am

Thing is with refinishes - you can claim it was a factory refinish or a UK Selmer finish but if it has been refinished the game is a bogey and anything can be true.
There is no way to prove that it is a 'factory' over-spray or when it was done. The value is massively reduced for any refinish. There is only top value in original factory paint, applied once.

I've seen guitars that were allegedly refinished Fiesta Red for the UK market after they arrived by Selmer but who knows lol?

No way to prove it and you can't ask the going rate for a refinish.

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Re: Factory Refin Value

Post by mbene085 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:21 am

señormisterioso wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:40 am
mbene085 wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:20 am


If it's a "suspected" factory refin, value is the same as any other refinish, which is significantly below an original sunburst.
Thank you! That’s what I was going after I’m looking at a couple of JMs that look like they might have gone back to the factory in the 60s or the they were refinished before they left. So in your opinion they should fetch less than a sunburst for that same year correct?
Yes, absolutely a "factory" refin is worth less than a sunburst, because nobody can prove it's a factory refin. It's the thing every old refin gets labeled as in order to try to drive up the price.

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Re: Factory Refin Value

Post by señormisterioso » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:21 am

gringopig wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:16 am

UK Selmer finish

I've seen guitars that were allegedly refinished Fiesta Red for the UK market after they arrived by Selmer but who knows lol?
!? Wait, you are not joking. You are saying there's a thing in UK called "Selmer Finnish"? That's really funny. Are they different in color or hue? I would guess they would be using UK 60s car paint? (Morgan, Jaguar...)

Need to google this...

Thank you!

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Re: Factory Refin Value

Post by señormisterioso » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:26 am

mbene085 wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:21 am
señormisterioso wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:40 am
mbene085 wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:20 am


If it's a "suspected" factory refin, value is the same as any other refinish, which is significantly below an original sunburst.
Thank you! That’s what I was going after I’m looking at a couple of JMs that look like they might have gone back to the factory in the 60s or the they were refinished before they left. So in your opinion they should fetch less than a sunburst for that same year correct?
Yes, absolutely a "factory" refin is worth less than a sunburst, because nobody can prove it's a factory refin. It's the thing every old refin gets labeled as in order to try to drive up the price.
That makes sense. Specially after how good the science of relicing is getting to make guitars look old.

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Re: Factory Refin Value

Post by mbene085 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:29 am

señormisterioso wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:21 am
gringopig wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:16 am

UK Selmer finish

I've seen guitars that were allegedly refinished Fiesta Red for the UK market after they arrived by Selmer but who knows lol?
!? Wait, you are not joking. You are saying there's a thing in UK called "Selmer Finnish"? That's really funny. Are they different in color or hue? I would guess they would be using UK 60s car paint? (Morgan, Jaguar...)

Need to google this...

Thank you!
Selmer, the company, would refinish sunburst strats in the U.K. in fiesta red because of the popularity of The Shadows creating demand. So they were sold to the original owners as fiesta red but were factory sunburst guitars. Because there can be provenance, these guitars are valued higher than run of the mill refins, but there's a whole lot of fakery as a result since it is easy for any fiesta red refin that has ever been in the U.K. to be claimed as one.

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Re: Factory Refin Value

Post by offkeyericdee » Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:52 am

I'm in the school of thought that says a proper and verified factory refinish should be worth only very slightly less than an original custom color but far more than original sunburst (unless the refin was in sunburst, then it'd be about the same I suppose). Here's what Jim Shine's website had to say on the subject:

"Factory refinishing was an option at Fender through the 1960's. Jazzmaster and Jaguar guitars were top of the line instruments at the time, so this option was used frequently when the owner started to wear their guitar out, or wanted to change the color and upgrade to a Custom Color. These guitars are very hard to spot as being refins as the factory applied them and after 35-40 years of age, they look 100% authentic. There are markings that will tip you off if it is a factory refinish. The bodies and/or neck will have a number code burned into the wood and often the color will be initialed or written out as well. Pre-1966 refins have the numbers and color crudely etched in with a soldering iron done freehand. Often in this era the numbers match an invoice at the factory or full serial number. In 1966 we see a metal stamp used to number code the bodies and the refin color name. The numbers in this era often match the last 3-4 digits of the serial number of the guitar. There are exceptions and it appears that the serial number code and work order invoice code were used intermittently. Other clues as to when the refin was performed can be found in the pickups and/or pots. The factory usually changed one or both of these items, but not in every case. There is evidence that on occasion Fender would change the body or the neck when they did a refin. This was likely done when a neck had worn frets, or a body had large dents and dings that didn't easily sand out. Often the replacement part will not have the branding, but I haven't seen enough to come up with a definitive conclusion as to how they marked them as a standard."
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Re: Factory Refin Value

Post by lalalandstudios » Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:44 am

You can absolutely verify an authentic Fender factory refin done by Fender. And provenance is always a huge plus for a vintage guitar regardless of finish but it’s not required to prove a Fender factory refin.

I disagree completely that an authentic Fender factory refin in a desirable custom color would be priced less than a corresponding standard color model. How many verified Fender factory refins have you seen sold recently and what did they sell for? Price would depend on condition, color, and rarity and what else is out there on the market. I agree that they wouldnt price equally to comparable all original custom color but difference may not be that much. They definitely are out there but are not ubiquitous and are a part of Fender’s history.

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Re: Factory Refin Value

Post by mbene085 » Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:57 am

That's why I mentioned provenance. If you can prove it, sure. If you can't, you're paying extra for what is probably not a factory refin, and sellers have tremendous incentive to claim every old refinish is a factory job.

Sure, there are refins selling for more than sunbursts. I don't think those buyers are getting their money's worth, but they do. The number of custom colour pre-CBS Fenders has been increasing over time, not because they suddenly discovered a hidden cache of them, but because fakes are worth a ton of money.

I guess you could argue that a guitar is worth whatever someone is willing to pay. There are certainly people paying extra money for old refins, but I'm not sure they're getting their money's worth without provenance.

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Re: Factory Refin Value

Post by Mechanical Birds » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:36 pm

The responses are kind of weird to me. I don’t have experience with this but to me it seems like if it is a confirmed factory refin that should affect value and would actually possibly make it more valuable?

Don’t get me wrong - a refin by an auto painting company or from some dude’s garage, yeah see ya whatever but OG Fender doing it? Come on.

There’s 2 guitar shops where I live and one of them, infuriatingly, has a ‘66-looking Lake Placid Jaguar on a ceiling level shelf that’s not for sale or anything, it’s just something the owner for some reason keeps on display. The original story I was told about it was that it was actually from Fall 1962, and the owner played in church and a few cover bands or whatever and in 1965 ran over the thing and snapped the neck and had just thrown it away (yeah what wtf why would you do that), but the dude’s wife dug it out of the trash and sent it all in to Fender for them to replace the neck and fix whatever else, and when it got sent back it had the B&B neck on it.

I tried to make an offer on it and the shop manager told me that an offer of $8,000 was denied and that the shop owner looked at that guitar and the refinned ‘56 Les Paul and whatever other shit I don’t care about that he has just sitting and collecting dust on this dumbass shelf as his retirement plan. Now, I’m no accountant but it seems to me like that Jag is worth like, even with all that shit happening if it’s even real, like $6,000 absolute tops? I can’t even go in there anymore because the thought of that guitar being kept out of any hands whatsoever instead of being played every day like it should is infuriating

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Re: Factory Refin Value

Post by Mechanical Birds » Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:12 pm

lalalandstudios wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:44 am
You can absolutely verify an authentic Fender factory refin done by Fender. And provenance is always a huge plus for a vintage guitar regardless of finish but it’s not required to prove a Fender factory refin.

I disagree completely that an authentic Fender factory refin in a desirable custom color would be priced less than a corresponding standard color model. How many verified Fender factory refins have you seen sold recently and what did they sell for? Price would depend on condition, color, and rarity and what else is out there on the market. I agree that they wouldnt price equally to comparable all original custom color but difference may not be that much. They definitely are out there but are not ubiquitous and are a part of Fender’s history.
This, though I understand the sentiment that they’d be worth less too for sure. Ifs it’s confirmed, to me, that makes a Fender a lot cooler honestly just because of the stories of the things being bought, played and loved so much they needed real work done to them, then sent to the actual company and finished in a new color, and then sent back to the owner to be played and loved more. I don’t have tons of vintage experience but that sounds awesome to me and is probably a sign I’ll get ripped off in the future haha

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Re: Factory Refin Value

Post by lalalandstudios » Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:20 pm

A confirmed Fender factory custom color refin is both easy to differentiate from other refins and is typically priced similarly to corresponding custom color and above the standard color model value - again factoring in condition, color rarity, and availability. The responses in this thread are based on a few individuals opinions (which of course we're all entitled to have and to express) but is not backed up by the facts/data and further confused by the issue of differentiating a Fender factory refin vs a generic refin.

I would urge that if anyone can't tell the difference between an original Fender factory finish, an authentic Fender factor refin (with its associated markings), or a generic refinish, then you should only buy from truly trusted sources, get an expert to help you examine the instrument, or avoid this market altogether.

It is true that as vintages Jags and Jazzmasters have become more valuable the issue of forgeries/fakes has become more and more significant, but there are also aging collectors that are beginning to sell their CC instruments given the high prices they are fetching. We will continue to see a steady trickle of custom color instruments coming out of collections where they've been hiding for many many years.

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