Pre CBS Jaguar Body Wood - Alder or something else?

[PJazzmaster]

I have this lovely parts jaguar. For some reason this guitar has a totally different feel, sound and attack than any other Jaguar.
The Body has some rather unusual wood grain which made me wonder whether the body wood is not alder.

What are you guys thinking based on the pictures attached? Is that alder?

[sal paradise]

On an electric guitar with paint over the body, the sound, attack & feel is highly unlikely to be affected by the type of wood (assuming it’s a dense wood).

[PJazzmaster]

On an electric guitar with paint over the body, the sound, attack & feel is highly unlikely to be affected by the type of wood (assuming it’s a dense wood).

thanks for your help . I am however looking forward to getting my question answered rather than seeking for scientific advice I made this post in the vintage section which is kinda the esoteric mojo section of OSG, innit
So, yes, I am a believer

[Embenny]

That grain could definitely still be alder.

However, there are many stories of Leo Fender using small batches of other woods for supply or cost reasons.

I know some 1950s sunburst strats ended up with sassafras bodies. Eric Johnson has one, and they made a reissue based on it.

But the rule with wood is that you can never make a 100% accurate identification based on the look of the grain. If you want to know, you have to dig a small sample of material out of one of the routs and send it off to a lab for DNA testing, which can definitively identify exactly what it is.

Nobody ever wants to do that, so you just get grain-based conjecture online. Someone can call it alder with prominent streaks in the grain. Someone can call it ash with unusually subdued streaks. Someone can call it poplar with an unusual lack of mineral stains. Someone can call it sassafras with less prominent grain than average.

None of those opinions mean anything, and the vibrancy of the guitar may or may not have anything to do with the species of wood. Could just be an especially low-density and well-dried piece of "whatever tree.

It's fun to discuss and to hear people's opinions, but just keep in mind that no actual expert on wood would ever tell you they're sure of what it is unless you can hand them a sample to examine under a microscope and with a DNA test.

[MattK]

Being a 65 (my guess), that is likely to be one of the ones which received a coat of opaque yellow and a “grain streaking” paint job before the sunburst was done. This was used to cover cosmetically less appealing grain on some of the wood they were using. Sometimes called a “fauxburst”. It would have been less visible new, but the red has faded now. No different to any other alder Jag in construction/tone, just opaque yellow instead of clear on the base coat.

[Highnumbers]

On an electric guitar with paint over the body, the sound, attack & feel is highly unlikely to be affected by the type of wood (assuming it’s a dense wood).

The wood certainly does make a difference. Whether some people can’t hear that difference is another discussion.

(Deja vu here, I think we’ve already had this debate in the past regarding ash body offsets).


The only two lumber types that Fender stocked were alder and ash, in that era. (Along with maple and rosewood for necks). A small handful of Korina bodies were made around 1963, but that grain is very easy to identity.

[MattK]

Actually my fauxburst theory is probably wrong - the chips in the finish would show white, if it was done that way.

[ThePearDream]

Hard to tell from those few photos. Something from the control cavity would be helpful. It's hard to know how soiled the worn through spots of finish are. Obviously Alder and Ash are the most likely candidates though.


Here a longshot possibility to muddy things up. Fender was making Duo-Sonics with Mahogany bodies at this time. Some even had an opaque "Maroon Burst" finish. It wouldn't be unlike Fender to use some Mahogany blanks if they were waiting for a shipment of Alder.

If I had to pick a wood, I'd go with Alder though.

[JVG]

I’d say it’s alder just with slightly more distinct grain stripes than usual.

As an aside, within tree species there can be considerable variation in colour, grain pattern and density of the wood. This is determined primarily by the local climate and speed at which the tree grows, plus the supply of water and nutrients available to it. The age of the tree and even the part of the tree from which wood was taken also have an effect on density and colour. Perhaps this is obvious, I don’t know.

Anyway, isn’t it nice to chance upon a guitar that sounds that extra bit special, even if we can’t be exactly sure why.

[Skeet-1969]

The scratches near the thumbwheels looks alder to me.
Mike B

[timtam]

I have this lovely parts jaguar. For some reason this guitar has a totally different feel, sound and attack than any other Jaguar.

Get a bode plot done on your particular pickups (including loading of the resonant frequency/Q by your particular electronics). Get bridge admittance measured. Get laser vibrometry done on your string vibration losses to the residual string. Get the resonant modal frequencies of the neck and associated nut/fret admittances measured. Get string-fret micro damping measured.

All of those things have been shown to be common sources of sonic differences in same-model guitars in the last several decades (although many are not known by players, nor most manufacturers). AFAIK I know there are no labs in the US with experience of making all of those measurements (certainly none within any US guitar manufacturers), but there are such labs in Germany and France.

The answer likely lies somewhere in those particular physics. The simplistic two-factor model - "if it's not the pickups it must be the wood" - is from the pre-scientific age of guitars.

[HarktheUmpire]

Not saying this is the reason, but it’s another factor to consider; my old Jag sounded very different from others as well, but not in a good way. I found out why; the volume pot was broken/off spec. I disconnected and measured it and when turned up fully, it read 40k rather than 1m. Replaced it with a 250k pot and it sounds lovely now (better than with a 1meg pot, but that’s another discussion). I’d look to see if anything is unusual there first, as the electronics will affect the tone of an electric guitar much more strongly than the wood.

If it’s not the pickups, it might be the electronics.
If it’s not the electronics, it might be the hardware.
If it’s not the hardware, it might be your imagination.
If it‘s not your imagination, it might be the wood, but it probably isn’t.

That’s obviously just my opinion. I’m aware any time wood is discussed things can get absurdly heated on here. Hope that doesn’t happen this time.

[PJazzmaster]

Thanks all. Great input and suggestions
I assume it‘s just a regular body and all in all a very special guitar

[shigginpit]

It wouldn't be unlike Fender to use some Mahogany blanks

There are some duo sonic and musicmaster type bodies (possibly also mustangs but I can't remember those specifically mentioned) that were confirmed to be mahogany, and these models (jag and duosonic) are both short scale instruments, but that's a very loose connection and nothing that would convince me this specifically was built from a mahogany blank. Also, I think it goes back to a time probably 8-10 years before this guitar would date from, but there's some information about earlier pine bodies.

That said, it's probably alder. Is there a known weight on this jaguar? Someone could probably provide a weight on the hardware and an average pre cbs jag neck (less likely to have material fluctuation resulting in weight change from specimen to specimen) which could be subtracted from the guitar's total weight and then perhaps some analysis could be made based on average wood weights factoring in density and moisture loss on 60 year old lumber, but again it just leads to more conjecture even though those may be slightly more scientific methods of approaching conjecture.

It's difficult to tell from this picture alone but to me, while the color does have a bit more warmth to it than some raw alder, I think at this point exposed mahogany would have taken a darker shade, also the grain doesn't appear open enough to be mahogany (would really need a super high def close up to have any better guess on that). One thing that might be worth considering is that there does not appear to be much in the way of yellow stain showing (at least from the way the picture makes it appear) and a burst body should have (inconsistently) been yellow stained and dipped in fullerplast or (insert other coating name here) so with absence of yellow, was it because the wood didn't drink it up? Did it just fade? Was the body not intended to be a burst? Did someone know the blank needed to be finished differently and set it aside intentionally? Just leads to more mystery as often seems to be the case with anomalies (or things we label as anomalous).

I feel like Embenny has it correct, that without sending a sample to a lab, it's all just speculation. But it's a freakin beauty of a parts guitar though, I can almost smell that pre-cbs hardcase aroma just looking at it

[ThePearDream]

It wouldn't be unlike Fender to use some Mahogany blanks

There are some duo sonic and musicmaster type bodies (possibly also mustangs but I can't remember those specifically mentioned) that were confirmed to be mahogany, and these models (jag and duosonic) are both short scale instruments, but that's a very loose connection and nothing that would convince me this specifically was built from a mahogany blank. Also, I think it goes back to a time probably 8-10 years before this guitar would date from, but there's some information about earlier pine bodies.

I brought this up, because someone else had stated that Fender only kept Alder and Ash (and maple and rosewood) around, which was incorrect. I wasn't trying to call anyone out though, just wanting to clear up some bad information. Both models being short scales wasn't the connection I was making and didn't even figure in to my thinking.

The connection is, those Duos and MM were made in 1963-1964, the same time period as many Pre-CBS Jaguars (which the guitar in question, is). As well, Fender's early acoustic guitars were manufactured at the same factory, until early 1964. These used Mahogany as well. Therefore, when this Jaguar was built, the Fender factory almost certainly had Mahogany on hand. All that said, this is (as I already said) probably Alder.

I don't know enough about the old Fender amps to know if the cabinets were made in the same factory, but I know they were solid Pine at that time.

So, the Fender factory probably had Alder, Ash, Mahogany, Spruce, Maple, Rosewood, Pine, and probably some other stuff too.