New member, potential '64 Jag owner...w/questions

[joeybsyc]

Hi guys... just joined the site 5 minutes ago... I'm a member over at The Gear Page, and own a pile of Strats, a pair of Teles, and a Danocaster Esquire. While my collection is pretty decent, I have always desired to own a vintage Fender. I always liked the looks of the Jags and JM's, but can honestly say I've never had the opportunity to even play one, mainly because I live in a one horse town with one music store that's never had one in stock. Well today I was at a shop I've never been to, and found a guitar that really tripped my trigger, at least appearance wise... I have not even played it yet, as I wanted to get some opinions on if it's even worthy of consideration before i even show too much interest, or get too much GAS for it.... (OK, I admit I already have a major case of the "wants" for it!) OK, enough about that... now for the nitty gritty.

The good...Its a real deal 1964 Jaguar, with supposedly original neck, pickups, body, and hardware. Original L series neckplate, finished in SUPER cool looking dark Coral Pink nitro with a mint green 60's style guard. Slightly worn finish with a few nicks and bumps, but very nice appearing guitar that drew me in like a magnet.

The kinda bad... its a total refinish, both body AND neck, with a repro decal thats been cleared over and is not correct for a 64 from what i can tell. (Believe its a later 60's style logo) Its an OLD refin though, and actually looks original, very nice nitro finish with some mild checking, wear, nicks, etc... doesn't have that "just repainted" look at all.

The more bad...The seller told me it had a strat pickup placed between the 2 originals when he got it, and they removed it and put on a new Fender repro 3 ply pickguard. I haven't seen it without a pickguard (he said we can take it apart and check it all out) but I'd assume it's been routed out under the guard for the strat pickup thats no longer there. He says it DOES have the original date stamp on the heel of the neck. Comes with a vintage 60's black tolex Fender case, but not believed to be the "original" one for the guitar.

I know its probably never going to be "worth" a fortune, being a refin and missing the original pickguard, but it has an awesome look, at least to me... I actually prefer it to an original sunburst, because its a very cool old lacquer paint job that looks original and just has so much "eyeball"...He wants close to 2000.00 for it with the case, and seems to be pretty firm on his price. I don't think its a steal, but I don't know if it's a total rip off either... should I go play it, take it apart, etc. and make a deal on it if it plays well, or is that price way too much? I have a couple really crappy cell phone pics that don't do it justice, (makes it look way too orange rather than the nice salmon/coral color it really is) but at least you can get some idea...Any input would be appriciated!

[Orang Goreng]

I'd advise against it. For $ 2000 you can score a much nicer one, going by recent eBay history. Refin, routes, some non-original parts? I'd say $1200 would be closer to fair for this one in the current climate, and maybe I'm actually way too optimistic with that.

[wardpike]

Orang, you're being generous but dead-on with market value...

a 1964 original condition Jag neck intact might sell for $750 under normal circumstances but this one is refinished and has the wrong decal! $375 tops. Plate is about $75 from a decent dealer, not the opportunists on eBait.

Non original pickguard, subtract $350 minimum... what else is non-original? Are the pickups guaranteed original? Any pictures to verify the same? Original control plates and electronics? Wiring original? Doubtful, considering there was once a strat pup in there which was no doubt wired to the middle switch and the bridge pup wired to the tone-kill switch. How was it rewired?

Body has been repainted and was also routed out: $400 absolute tops. Bridge and tremolo still in original condition? $175 for both. Add pickups and yep, $1200 worth of parts.

So, in short, JoeyBSYC, offer him $1100 and be willing to go to $1200 and inform him that the leftover parts can be had for about that much online, ask him to be reasonable. Make him understand that your interest is a nice guitar with good vintage tone... not finding a "steal".

Best regards,

Ward

[secndshft]

Whats the B+B thing hanging beside that???? Sorry to hijack the thread.

[BoringPostcards]

Whats the B+B thing hanging beside that???? Sorry to hijack the thread.

I wanted to ask the same question. lol.

Yo, listen to Orang + Ward, they know what they're at with this stuff. Do haggle. Don't give up on it. Let us know the progress.

cheers!

[joeybsyc]

Thanks for the insight and opinions... as I said, I don't know anything about these offsets... it just blows my mind how they are worth pennies on the dollar compared to Strats or Teles. If this was a 64 Strat, even with nothing original at all, what would it be worth? way more than this... I guess I just figured a real-deal pre-CBS Fender should be worth at least as much as a modern "vintage reissue" of the same thing, even if it's not 100% original... as a reissue doesn't have ANY original parts. Guess not. I don't know about breaking down the value by it's parts, as I wasn't planning on parting it out, but I do see the point in estimating the value that way. What is an old black tolex Jaguar case add to the total value? I do know he's not going to sell much cheaper, in fact, i offered 1500.00 cash already and he refused it, so I basically gotta pay the price or walk. (He did drop 200.00 off the tag price)

I was just looking on ebay and don't see any current or past pre CBS jags that are as cheap, but I guess they're out there... As I said, i was actually just sorta smitten by the cool color and vintage vibe this one had, as it sorta "sucked me in"... Here's a pic of the one beside it, I don't even know the price, or the year, as the Sunburst finish did nothing for me, nor do the block inlays... but that's just me.





He put a hold tag on it for me and I told him I'd come in and play it, and we could pop off the pickguard and neck if i want...He seems like a decent guy just tryin to make a dollar, and will probably sell it to someone else for his price if I don't... I guess it sounds like i should just call him up and say I changed my mind. Darn it, I still like it though! I just don't want to feel like I paid too much.

FWIW I had no plans of trying to resell it, in fact just the opposite, i figured i could just buy it and have it forever. I Do think sometimes stuff is worthit if you like it, even if above general "market" prices...but it seems like the experts all say its too much, (I've talked to a couple others offline) and I think I should probably listen.

BTW, was coral an actual custom color for these in 64?

[wardpike]

Decent guy or no, Joey, just still around here and get your 50 meaningful posts in so you can peruse all the classifieds and you'll start finding out where you can score a better one than this for less money. We'll help you out. The entire gang around here is great for that!

My collection now numbers 47 guitars and I didn't need to make rash impulse decisions, and have always had the benefit of helpful colleagues with which to discuss guitar values and market trends so that I would always get a good deal.

Cheers, happy hunting, and welcome to the world of offsets!

Ward

[wardpike]

Re the Coral Pink color availability in 1964?

In short, NO. Coral Pink was available from 1959 until 1962, then replaced in 1963 with CAR. Burgundy Mist appeared in 1965, and finally Shell Pink was reintroduced around about 1969.

Souce:
Fender Custom Colors

[sookwinder]

Welcome to the forum .... I am sure the other OSG.com members will make you feel right at home.

FYI, I too loves strats (have 10 or so of them) and equally love Jaguars ... to me they are the same guitar, just different sides of the penney. (albeit with the trems and scale length being different.)

keep looking ... there are cheap vintage jaguars around .... refinished ones even cheaper at the moment .. well worth trhe wait and the $$$ outlay.

[teddy boy]

I say buy the guitar if yuo like it. Yuo won't find one that colour easily and if you really dig the guitar you'll be sorry later for not picking it up. It's only a little overpriced but who cares if you're going to keep the guitar...

[Pacafeliz]

I say buy the guitar if yuo like it. Yuo won't find one that colour easily and if you really dig the guitar you'll be sorry later for not picking it up. It's only a little overpriced but who cares if you're going to keep the guitar...

+1 he's got a point.
you can DEFINITELY find a more original one for cheaper on ebay etc, but you won't have the chance to play it before buying it... and get a lemon.
the color -even if it is a refin- is spectacular. if you have the $$ and don't "need" it, and you are CONVINCED you want/need THIS guitar NOW, do it.

but... what about that nice sunburst jag in front of it? blocks and binding! OH YES MOMMA!!! how much does he want for that one?

all this coming from the #1 impulsive buyer around. but... i've been lucky enought to NEVER having spent more than $1500 (or 1200?) on a guitar. and i have/have had a LOT of great old ones...
rock on, good luck. keep us posted about what you're gonna do.

Pat.

ps: dude WALK in with those 1500 IN YOUR HANDS and i think he won't say no.

pps: no strat hate here, eiter. proud owner of 5 1/2 strats myself!

[joeybsyc]

I hear what you're saying Tommy, and that's essentially the problem I'm facing... The guitar DOES trip my trigger, and is really the first Jag I ever saw that I didn't totally just walk past. I realize the refinish "hurts" the resale value, but for me personally, its the only thing that even drew me towards it. As I said, I have no love for sunburst, and if this had the original sunburst finish and was STILL the same price, i wouldn't even want it. So its not like I'd be out looking for a more original one, I'd still be looking for a refin, as I can't afford a "real" custom color, and from whats been said above, I'd have to find a 59-62, which I'm sure would be WAY more than I could afford.

I totally understand what the experts have been saying, and also understand that it's probably overpriced by a few hundred dollars, but I DO like it. The finish looks so much cooler in person than my crappy cell phone depicts, and has that 40 year old lacquer appearance to it... I haven't totally talked myself into or out of it yet, but I'm going to play it and check it out thoroughly tomorrow after work, andwill once again attempt to negotiate the price based on what I've learned here... I can tell you I don't think he's gonna budge though. I may walk, but a part of me tells me if I don't buy it I'll always regret walking away from that coral '64 Jag I liked but didn't buy because it was a few hundred dollars over market value. Still listening to opinions, but if I can get the guy to drop even a little bit on it, I'm afraid it's coming home with me...

[Tweedledee]

I love refinished old Jags because it's the only way I can afford them. I bought my poorly refinished 1965 for $1500 a couple of months ago (then refinished it properly myself) and while I thought that was a little high, I fell in love with the guitar so I was willing to pay that much. If it had been routed for an additional pickup and missing the original pickguard I wouldn't have been willing to pay $1500 though, to be honest. If it had been priced at $2k I wouldn't even have considered it.

$2000 definitely seems to be on the high side, but if he's willing to go down a couple of hundred dollars that's at least in the right range for dealer pricing, though I would still play a bit of hardball to get it down further. I really doubt anyone will buy it from the guy for that much, so I don't think you need to rush into a purchase for fear that it will be sold out from under you.

But I guess if you absolutely love it and it feels and sounds incredible to you, and if you would be paying for it with money you actually have and not putting it on a credit card or something, then spending a few hundred over what others think it is worth isn't too bad in the long run. It does look like an interesting one.

[joeybsyc]

Thanks again for all the input and opinions... I'm going to go play it and possibly take it apart tomorrow... can someone please give me a checklist of things to look for? How can I tell if the pickups are originals or replacements? I was told they are the originals, but I'd like some way to verify if I'm going to have the pickguard off. Also, what would an original case for a '64 look like? Black tolex, brown tolex, or that funky silverish tolex? I'm already working on my arguement for why he should drop on the price, wish me luck...

[ohm-men]

Not an expert, but this is what should be inside;

All cloth wiring in many colors, green/blue/orange(red)/black/ white...
Pu's should have grey? bobbins with cloth wire. Flat pole pieces and in most cases date script (written in pencil) on them.
There should be brass shielding plates inside where all the ground wires are attached to.
Large CTS pots with date codes (1 Meg each) dates should be in the '62-64 region (The used to stockpile them, so the post might be dated earlier then '64)
a large orange drop cap and a 56K resistor at the tone pot. + Switchcraft jack and switches.(all with date codes)

Neck should have a "64 stamp at the back.
Body should be approx between 40 and 42 mm thick. (at least for a "64)
I con't know about the "nail" holes, but better informed formites then me will know.

Normally the neck pocket should have traces from the original factory pain (most likely Sunburst)

As for the case. I'm guessing a black one with Fender logo and orange "pluche" in it.

Ofcourse you should play it! but if there is anything you don't like about it, walk away from it...
2 k is a lot of money imho...
Like others stated, there are plenty of fish in the sea, especially now and I'm sure there is chepar/better? to be found out there.