Is vintage worth the price?

Discussion of vintage Jazzmasters, Jaguars, Bass VIs, Electric XIIs and any other offset-waist instruments.

Re: Is vintage worth the price?

Postby Mute » Sat Feb 04, 2012 4:30 am

pocaloc wrote: That 3D sound description sounds like what I want to hear.


I can tell you what that is! The AVRI pickups are a joke compared to some nice handwound ones, vintage or otherwise. That goes for both the JM and jag AVRIs btw. Don't get fooled by the pricetags of those guitars - Fender is still cutting a lot of corners. Shit pickups is one them.
The hardware is horrible too. While it's stable and works fine, it's heavy enoug to actually dampen your guitar. Try putting some vintage (light) hardware on an AVRI - it will transform before your eyes. Or ears, to be more concise. I've done it a few times now, and people are always startled by the difference.
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Re: Is vintage worth the price?

Postby kypdurron » Sat Feb 04, 2012 4:36 am

as far as iconic years go, I read that Fender originally chose the '62 for the reissue Strat because of two reasons: It was the transition year from slab (?) to veneer fretboards, so they could do both in case the first doesn't come out great, without having to change the product's name. Second is, other than many other years of that time, 1962 bears no collective negative memory for americans (corrct me if Fender was wrong). So, the choice of 1962 didn't have much to do with the year being iconic. It had constructive and marketing reasons.

As for Jags, they debuted in 1962, so 1963 was the first full production year.
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Re: Is vintage worth the price?

Postby pocaloc » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:52 am

Just to clarify, I'm not necessarily looking at it as an investment, although in part I realize that there are only so many from the golden days, so I know that vintage, at least, shouldn't lose value. I think more along the lines that if I don't get in now, I never will. I also like owning a piece of history.

The info about the 3D pickups, quality pickups, lightweight quality parts and the difference that makes is what I was trying to find. I've also heard that a vintage trem is unbeatable as far as smoothness, which is understandable with the spring being more broken in. Out of curiosity, I would like to know what the quality re-finish will do to the value.
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Re: Is vintage worth the price?

Postby elektrovac » Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:59 am

pocaloc wrote:
That 3D sound description sounds like what I want to hear.

I can tell you what that is! The AVRI pickups are a joke compared to some nice handwound ones, vintage or otherwise. That goes for both the JM and jag AVRIs btw. Don't get fooled by the pricetags of those guitars - Fender is still cutting a lot of corners. Shit pickups is one them.


- This is true and that's why I put the Pickup Wizard pickups in my thin skin. Suddenly the 3D sound was there.
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Re: Is vintage worth the price?

Postby blacktiger » Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:25 am

I think if you are looking for a real long-term investment, you should consider a Jag. They are cheaper than JMs, and the kids who grew up worshiping Cobain and Frusciante are the blues lawyers of tomorrow.
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Re: Is vintage worth the price?

Postby tonewoods » Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:34 am

blacktiger wrote:...and the kids who grew up worshiping Cobain and Frusciante are the blues lawyers of tomorrow.


:shifty:
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Re: Is vintage worth the price?

Postby pocaloc » Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:00 am

tonewoods wrote:
blacktiger wrote:...and the kids who grew up worshiping Cobain and Frusciante are the blues lawyers of tomorrow.



Nice call...blues dentists too. :)
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Re: Is vintage worth the price?

Postby Jaguar018 » Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:31 pm

I have owned an AVRI Jaguar, four vintage jags (all refins) and a Fender Custom shop Jag.

I don't totally buy the 'vintage is always better' bit. I liked all mine, but never *that* much more than the current ones. Of all the different pickups these guitars had only one vintage one had that 3D thing Sookwinder mentioned. The other ones were average. It really depends on the year of manufacture and how everything comes together. There is no way in hell I'd ever say to always go vintage for all of the "tone" reasons.

Off all the jaguars that I have bought and sold on here I have seen a number of them get resold again. We all have different reasons that we buy and sell guitars, but from what I can tell, most of them have not been "the one" to the new buyer (though I think at least one of them has )

I'm a little confused about the vintage lighter hardware thing too. I've had a number of different AVRI and vintage trems and despite what Nels Cline says I have not seen that much of a difference. The thing is that the new ones need to be broken in. My #1 Custom Shop Jag initially had a stiff trem, but after a few years of regular use it has the same silky feel as vintage ones. Also, I've had a really heavy '66 Jag. Heaviest Jag I've played-- so again, vintage doesn't always equal 'light' either.

Basically I don't always think vintage is worth the price across the boards. I've played a few vintage guitars where I'd totally agree that it is; yet I have played a lot more vintage guitars where it is not at all-- lifeless Telecasters, Jaguars, Jazzmasters and all the rest. It depends on the guitar 100% of the time. Don't believe the hype on either side!
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Re: Is vintage worth the price?

Postby jim93 » Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:41 pm

Jaguar018 wrote:I have owned an AVRI Jaguar, four vintage jags (all refins) and a Fender Custom shop Jag.

I don't totally buy the 'vintage is always better' bit. I liked all mine, but never *that* much more than the current ones. Of all the different pickups these guitars had only one vintage one had that 3D thing Sookwinder mentioned. The other ones were average. It really depends on the year of manufacture and how everything comes together. There is no way in hell I'd ever say to always go vintage for all of the "tone" reasons.

Off all the jaguars that I have bought and sold on here I have seen a number of them get resold again. We all have different reasons that we buy and sell guitars, but from what I can tell, most of them have not been "the one" to the new buyer (though I think at least one of them has )

I'm a little confused about the vintage lighter hardware thing too. I've had a number of different AVRI and vintage trems and despite what Nels Cline says I have not seen that much of a difference. The thing is that the new ones need to be broken in. My #1 Custom Shop Jag initially had a stiff trem, but after a few years of regular use it has the same silky feel as vintage ones. Also, I've had a really heavy '66 Jag. Heaviest Jag I've played-- so again, vintage doesn't always equal 'light' either.

Basically I don't always think vintage is worth the price across the boards. I've played a few vintage guitars where I'd totally agree that it is; yet I have played a lot more vintage guitars where it is not at all-- lifeless Telecasters, Jaguars, Jazzmasters and all the rest. It depends on the guitar 100% of the time. Don't believe the hype on either side!

Its because they are refins and the newer more modern paint weighed down your body from resonating. You cant compare it with a real vintage guitar where the paint is not only lighter allowing your body to resonate better but it has also settled over time into a more stable position.




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Re: Is vintage worth the price?

Postby jm707 » Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:40 pm

I've owned a few vintage Jazzmasters and a few Reissues. The vintage ones have all played and sounded way better. No comparison on that level. Between vintage ones, there is quite a difference as each guitar has its own feel and sound. All made and aged slightly different. If you are looking for a guitar that you want to own for a long time, I would definitely save up for the vintage w/ original finish. In the end you'll probably be the most happy with that one over a longer period of time and the value will continue to grow. The early 65 Sunburst Jazzmasters are currently a great place to start, especially if you can get one with just the right amount of mojo. They are not technically pre-cbs but none of the major changes have been made by this point and the prices are usually better than 59-64s and they play and sound just as good IMHO.
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Re: Is vintage worth the price?

Postby 46346 » Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:22 pm

pocaloc wrote:The one I'm looking at is a re-finish in Natural from the original sunburst. It has the original
case in very good condition, and the guitar is in really good looking and functioning condition. It's about a $1000 less in price because of the re-finish at $1950. Fair price?

P.S. I'm looking more for mojo . And maybe it increasing or keeping value. That 3D sound description sounds like what I want to hear.



the mofo factor... you won't know until you play it. if the back of the neck looks well played, there's a good chance that the thing has soaked up some good vibes, in both a physical and maybe a spiritual sense. i was checking out new jags, and went with an old '65, it's the best jag i've played yet. vintage refin jags are a good value because they can be had for only $100-400 more than AVRI. of course, vintage Strats and Teles are way more expensive than their reissues, and even Jazzmaster refin's fetch quite a bit more than AVRI. just make sure the frets are good, etc.
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Re: Is vintage worth the price?

Postby pocaloc » Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:25 pm

46346 wrote:
pocaloc wrote:The one I'm looking at is a re-finish in Natural from the original sunburst. It has the original
case in very good condition, and the guitar is in really good looking and functioning condition. It's about a $1000 less in price because of the re-finish at $1950. Fair price?

P.S. I'm looking more for mojo . And maybe it increasing or keeping value. That 3D sound description sounds like what I want to hear.



the mofo factor... you won't know until you play it. if the back of the neck looks well played, there's a good chance that the thing has soaked up some good vibes, in both a physical and maybe a spiritual sense. i was checking out new jags, and went with an old '65, it's the best jag i've played yet. vintage refin jags are a good value because they can be had for only $100-400 more than AVRI. of course, vintage Strats and Teles are way more expensive than their reissues, and even Jazzmaster refin's fetch quite a bit more than AVRI. just make sure the frets are good, etc.


Well, I've decided to give it a try. It's worth $200-300 dollars to see for myself. At the very least it will hold it's value and I can get out of it if I need to. I really think I prefer the natural to sunburst, and the re-finish is going to allow me to get into vintage. An all original (other than the finish) 1963 jaguar.
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Re: Is vintage worth the price?

Postby felig » Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:45 am

I've had bad vintage & I've had bad reissues; however, I would say that the reissues are more consistently good. As far as the vintage market is concerned, I try to get something that has not been routed, but other than that, I go for ones that have changed parts & have been refinished. If something has its original finish, especially a custom color, you are essentially paying top dollar for paint. If I want to do that, I'll go seek out cans of 1960s vintage lacquer & acrylic at an auto body shop! Doesn't matter if the paint is all dried up, at least it's from the right time period!

It's impossible to nail down what drives prices: a little of this, a little of that, but the bottom line is that the vintage market pricing is subjectivity to the extreme. I buy basses & guitars to play, if I can get a better playing piece as a reissue, then that's what I buy.
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Re: Is vintage worth the price?

Postby jm707 » Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:02 am

For me depends on how its been refinished. If the original finish has been painted over, thats not the end of the world but if the body has been sanded off, you are taking off the layers of the thing that actually makes it sound good, thus you are likely to have a guitar that doesn't sound as good, maybe not always but the odds aren't great. I'd rather buy a reissue than a vintage refin cause at least the wood is all still there.
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Re: Is vintage worth the price?

Postby jim93 » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:34 am

jm707 wrote:For me depends on how its been refinished. If the original finish has been painted over, thats not the end of the world but if the body has been sanded off, you are taking off the layers of the thing that actually makes it sound good, thus you are likely to have a guitar that doesn't sound as good, maybe not always but the odds aren't great. I'd rather buy a reissue than a vintage refin cause at least the wood is all still there.

I was going to post about thats not how a vintage refinish works but then I realized that is not how any refinish works. If a guy told me he needed to sand down my body to refinish it I would immediately wonder how in the world did the world did this guy get the balls to charge people for a refinish.

Poly or nitrocellulose (modern or vintage) you dont sand the body down and mess the contours up. In vintage finishes its even harder to do anything to the wood because nitro comes off so easily with average stripping agents. It just rubs off with acetone.
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