DEEP vintage Fender lacquer "feel" ?'s for Dano, Novak, etc.

[46346]

it's not totally far-fetched, actually! I just don't think it's a big factor in this particular case.

Triglycerides (a type of fatty acid, I think) can come out in your skin oils. Triglycerides also can act as plasticizers.

It has been explained to me that when some vintage guitars get that gummy feeling and never seem to get hard or be able to be cleaned or buffed, that this might be a factor.

I of course don't have the requisite knowledge to confirm this absolutely, of course.

But the difference in behavior between Fender and Gibson lacquers, in terms of feel, would seem to rule this out.

unfortunately i seem to be one of those guys... but then i forget, and when i get an old-style nitro finish Fender, a week later the arm contour starts to get sticky, then i do this ritual of discomfort where i'm wiping down the finish after every session and cleaning it every week. but my two longest-held nitro Fenders have re-hardened in the arm contour, a couple years later - and well after i give up on the constant cleaning. but i dont' recall ever having gotten sticky on the neck. it could be that this possible softening and re-hardening had already happened long ago on these vintage necks, as there is so much constant thumb contact from the start. or that the finish is just different on the necks vs. the body (i don't know if it's the same stuff). i also think i may sweat differently from forearm to thumb. i'm real curious to see if my recently acquired AV65, which is now softening in the arm contour, gets solid again in a couple years.

[Despot]

I'll add to this with my observations - particularly around Fender vs Gibson lacquer.

My '62 JM has a neck rather similar to Brad's (in terms of how the finish looks), and I instinctively know what we're talking about here in terms of feel. My '65 Jaguar feels similar, but different - there's more of a strict transition between the worn and clean lacquer, but even the clean lacquer feels silky rather than sticky or glassy (like poly or new nitro that's been polished to remove the tacky feel of the new finish).

Gibson lacquer seems to be a little different. My ES345 (1962) has lacquer that has sort of worn away in chips or little circles. Whereas Fender lacquer will wear evenly and the transition will generally be indistinct, Gibson lacquer wears with more defined lines between the finish and wood. At least this was the case on the 345 and my old SG Junior (1964).

Here's another thing - there isn't a single sign of lacquer checking on the body finish of my ES345 - none. It's dull and lacks lustre, but there's no checking. There's a tonne of wear (as anyone who has seen the photos of it will know), but it's all arm wear or playing wear on the top, back and sides. By way of comparison, my Jazzmaster (same year) is extensively checked all over the body.

It would seem that Gibson and Fender used quite different lacquer that behaves in different ways over time (even if we exclude the differing effects of climate and humidity over the course of 50 odd years).

[øøøøøøø]

My ES345 (1962) has lacquer that has sort of worn away in chips or little circles. Whereas Fender lacquer will wear evenly and the transition will generally be indistinct, Gibson lacquer wears with more defined lines between the finish and wood.

spot on, in my experience.

[Con-Tiki!]

i would guess that the hollowbody moves less. All that fender checking probably has to do with the giant hunk of wood it's trying to contain.

[Telliot]

i would guess that the hollowbody moves less. All that fender checking probably has to do with the giant hunk of wood it's trying to contain.

Maybe, but that wouldn't explain the lacquer along the neck.

[øøøøøøø]

i would guess that the hollowbody moves less. All that fender checking probably has to do with the giant hunk of wood it's trying to contain.

I don't get what you're trying to say here-- maybe try putting it another way?

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but-- lacquer on hollow bodies checks more readily, all else being equal, because they can change temperature more rapidly (cold or warm air can reach both sides of a thin piece of wood simultaneously, as opposed to having to warm up or cool down a giant slab only from the outside).

[InLimbo]

I literally have nothing to add to this thread. I'm sad because I've never experienced a neck feel like this (even the '66 I played wasn't worn this way).

But about the hollowbody - it seems like it would also check more, in my mind. As Brad states, the thinner amount of wood (and the idea that it gets air and presumable moisture inside of it) allows it to vibrate more would lead me to the assumption that it would check more. Again, I have no idea, and I guess for this thought of mine to work, you'd have to be playing while the temperature changed.

Great thread, though.

[Telliot]

Agreed. It does seem a solid chunk of wood should be more stable, all things being equal.

[Con-Tiki!]

Agreed. It does seem a solid chunk of wood should be more stable, all things being equal.

maybe so.
all the cheap 50yr-old hollow guitars i've owned, not one has checked.
good point on the neck finishes, though..

i shouldn't post and eat cereal at the same time

[fuzzking]

So, this happened today....

(IMG... IMG... IMG...)

Yikes!!

I'm going to use some of the info in this thread to see if I can get close to how my old Jazzmaster neck feels. I'm hoping to avoid using any kind of aerosol and might completely do away with another amber tint (good riddance to that old fake tan), opting for a more natural, oil-based finish. I'll definitely use something that'll darken the maple somewhat.

I don't want to hijack this thread though so I'll probably dig out my old build thread & tack stuff on the end.

You can stain the neck in a somewhat amberish tint with dye and then apply the Tru-Oil. The neck I did that way came out pretty nice and the feel is somewhat close to an old one. Just make sure to apply even and thin layers. Rubbing in with fingertips works a treat. I applied somewhat less to the cowboy chord area, sanded last few layers w/micromesh, and rubbed the back of the neck like crazy with a pair of old jeans for several hours. Feels awesome.

[Telliot]

All three of my hollowbodies are checking to some degree or another:

'59 Harmony Meteor





'54 Gibson ES-125





'65 Hofner 500/2 Club Bass

[PorkyPrimeCut]

So, this happened today....

(IMG... IMG... IMG...)

Yikes!!

I'm going to use some of the info in this thread to see if I can get close to how my old Jazzmaster neck feels. I'm hoping to avoid using any kind of aerosol and might completely do away with another amber tint (good riddance to that old fake tan), opting for a more natural, oil-based finish. I'll definitely use something that'll darken the maple somewhat.

I don't want to hijack this thread though so I'll probably dig out my old build thread & tack stuff on the end.

You can stain the neck in a somewhat amberish tint with dye and then apply the Tru-Oil. The neck I did that way came out pretty nice and the feel is somewhat close to an old one. Just make sure to apply even and thin layers. Rubbing in with fingertips works a treat. I applied somewhat less to the cowboy chord area, sanded last few layers w/micromesh, and rubbed the back of the neck like crazy with a pair of old jeans for several hours. Feels awesome.

So far I've given it a couple of layers of linseed oil, rubbed on with a t-shirt, followed by a slightly unorthodox decision to add brown oil paint to the mix. I literally put a blob on the wood, neat, then rubbed it in. It looks great & has got me close to the colour of my Jazzmaster. With a bit of luck, several more layers of linseed oil will add a bit more yellow to the mix. All the while I'll be sanding back & burnishing like mad. Then I'll lock it in with Tru-Oil which will get a similar pummelling. Using fingers to rub it in is interesting. Might have to look into that.

What someone else mentioned about the "dry" feeling of a well worn Fender neck is spot on & exactly what I want to try'n shoot for.

[Despot]

So I guess I should wade in on the hollow body/checking debate, given that I sort of kicked it off and also given that I've owned a fair few of them over the years.

At the moment I own three - a '62 ES345, a '65 ES330 and a '67 fender Coronado.

The ES345 has absolutely no checking. At all. Not even the ghost impression of it. However the finish looks like it has fully bonded with the wood ... as if it's sunk into the wood rather than sitting on top of it. And this guitar has been played! It's worn down to the wood in places on top, and on the back. Sorry - writing this from an unfriendly terminal so I can't find my photos/links right now - but they're on the Non-Offset thread for those who care to find them. You'll see what I mean from there...

The ES330 on the other hand has extensive checking to the top - but none to the back/sides. It's worth considering that 330s had coloured/shaded tops and plain/stained back/sides at that point, so perhaps the issue is with the colour coat, as otherwise you'd expect the top/sides/back to all have checked at the same rate. Who knows - top checked, back and sides no.

The Coronado has checked in the usual Fender way, in sort of regular lines if that makes sense. Also the Coronado neck has worn in the typical Fender way - gradual transition between wood/worn and remaining lacquer, with a very smooth feel. The Gibsons tend to wear with more pronounced lines in the wood/lacquer transition - and the feel is different, but also great. Unfortunately my ES330 doesn't have this neck as some muppet oversprayed the neck about ten years ago (on the advice of a well known repair guy here who does this without asking on any old guitar he gets with a worn in neck, charging people for the work done which was necessary to 'safeguard the neck against humidity to stop it warping'. Seriously. This guy exists).

[zhivago]

Thanks for chiming in Kev...on the front of the ermm...front of the guitar checking and not the sides or back, this could be because of the guitar being in a case usually...every time we open the case, the top gets most of the blast of the different temperature etc...that should have more of an effect on the lacquer



Damn, I love playing Sherlock!

[mothershipzeta]

on the advice of a well known repair guy here who does this without asking on any old guitar he gets with a worn in neck, charging people for the work done which was necessary to 'safeguard the neck against humidity to stop it warping'. Seriously. This guy exists

Well that made me feel uncomfortable...