Dum Dum Girls

Discussion of newer designs, copies and reissue offset-waist instruments.
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mackerelmint
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Re: Dum Dum Girls

Post by mackerelmint » Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:16 am

Huh. I'm glad I popped my head back in here. Shadowplay touched on a lot of the things I didn't have the energy to go into yesterday. Dressing for herself being high on that list. Also, the shitty reality of walking into a music store while female. I avoid it where possible, although I did notice a vintage guitar place a couple weeks ago that had a woman working there, so that'll probably be where I buy my strings and whatnot from now on, just because I know I'm not gonna be talked down to, ignored, or treated as some kind of interloper.

"You're taking this too hard" = there's that patronization. Even just pointing something sexist out gets a patronizing response from people more often than not, and I don't believe you knew my gender at the time.

I was actually thinking of using the RHCP as an example of the differences in how bodies are viewed and talked about yesterday, but that discussion gets really expansive really fast. Funny that it was brought up in a really flat attempt to make the opposite point.

And I'm gonna just paraphrase and summarize that whole defense of casual sexism I was facepalming at real quickly, I doubt mediocreplayer is gonna want to see it, but I don't care and I'm gonna just illustrate it anyway:

"Boobs > the music"
"that's gross and demeaning and I doubt she'd like seeing that comment much"
"but we see them so we get to talk about them."
"Not saying you can't, but I'm talking about why it's terrible to make comments to the effect that a creative person's ability to give someone a boner is more important than their creative output itself."
"Your position is invalid because I CAN SEE HER BOOBS. Also, I'm trying to make this about what she's wearing and not the sexist remark about her music you took exception to and were addressing. Will you lighten up and let me move the goalposts?"

No. I won't. The goalposts stay where the original post in question set them, and I'm not gonna engage you talking in circles, either.

This is the first time I've waded into a thread here that devolved into sexist remarks, and it'll probably be the last. When you live with this shit every day, it's exhausting to confront it in your "fun spaces". So generally I don't. There are a few folk on this board who really get this stuff, and I really appreciate the fact that you do, and call this shit out when you see it. Sometimes it takes men making these points for other men to even consider them.

And for the record: there's nothing wrong with thinking someone's hawt or making comments to that effect. It says a lot about how this stuff is framed and discussed that I even feel the need to make that disclaimer lest I be totally written off by some as a humorless harpy looking for something to take offense to, but there you have it. That's the state of things and how women have to navigate this sort of discussion as a result.

Carry on.
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Dok
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Re: Dum Dum Girls

Post by Dok » Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:08 pm

mackerelmint wrote:
This is the first time I've waded into a thread here that devolved into sexist remarks, and it'll probably be the last. When you live with this shit every day, it's exhausting to confront it in your "fun spaces". So generally I don't. There are a few folk on this board who really get this stuff, and I really appreciate the fact that you do, and call this shit out when you see it. Sometimes it takes men making these points for other men to even consider them.
Thank you for your comments, seriously. I've stayed far away from this thread up until this point because it seemed ready to get toxic at any minute. There are few enough female guitar players as it is and I think the way that they get treated, as you described, is a big part of the reason why. This board seems to pride itself on being a little more enlightened than the rest of them (no blooz lawyers here) so it bums me out to see that we can still manage find ways to alienate the few women who have decided to participate.
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mediocreplayer
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Re: Dum Dum Girls

Post by mediocreplayer » Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:02 pm

Jaguar018 wrote:
mediocreplayer wrote:I don't think I am missing anything, and I think you are taking this too hard. We just seem to differ on what is going on here. To me, "Boobs" are definitely part of that performance, in the same way that RHCP put socks on their genitals, and hence discussing them --with or without music-- is fair game.
So what? We never ever have a thread about guy bands playing offset guitars thread turn into a bunch of pictures of them in skimpy outfits.
That's not true. There was one with Axl Rose a while back.

For the record and for anyone who is coming late to this, I am not the person responsible for the offending post. I just disagree with people jumping on someone because he posted a public photo of the band in question and added a silly comment to it. I have explained why a few times so no reason to do it again. I am not sure I got any meaningful responses, but, whatever. Back to more fun topics :)

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Re: Dum Dum Girls

Post by Jaguar018 » Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:30 pm

mediocreplayer wrote:That's not true. There was one with Axl Rose a while back.

For the record and for anyone who is coming late to this, I am not the person responsible for the offending post. I just disagree with people jumping on someone because he posted a public photo of the band in question and added a silly comment to it. I have explained why a few times so no reason to do it again. I am not sure I got any meaningful responses, but, whatever. Back to more fun topics
Axl Rose doesn't really play guitar does he? You might win one internet point for finding an example of OSG people dipping into a guy's looks, but come on, the larger issue remains that a lot of posts about ladies in rock turn into a HOTT GIRLZZ threads. That's what happen when you just focus on sexy pics-- and again I thought the point of the original thread was about THE GUITARS, not the hot looks and outfits.

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Re: Dum Dum Girls

Post by soggy mittens » Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:56 pm

This forum is pretty much 95% guys from what I gather, I think the less females there are in a room/forum then the more likely guys will allow themselves to slip into some prehistoric state of mind. Guys, I think behave better when there are more girls around, and when the numbers are reversed then.. yeah. Which suggests to me that deep down they know some shit is just wrong. For me this is the worst forum I've been to for this kind of behavior but also easily the most guyish, go figure.

this touches on some interesting points about males and control issues..
http://mic.com/articles/96008/the-perfe ... a-big-deal
If OSG has tort me anything...

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spindizzy
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Re: Dum Dum Girls

Post by spindizzy » Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:26 pm

Jaguar018 wrote:
mediocreplayer wrote:That's not true. There was one with Axl Rose a while back.

For the record and for anyone who is coming late to this, I am not the person responsible for the offending post. I just disagree with people jumping on someone because he posted a public photo of the band in question and added a silly comment to it. I have explained why a few times so no reason to do it again. I am not sure I got any meaningful responses, but, whatever. Back to more fun topics
Axl Rose doesn't really play guitar does he? You might win one internet point for finding an example of OSG people dipping into a guy's looks, but come on, the larger issue remains that a lot of posts about ladies in rock turn into a HOTT GIRLZZ threads. That's what happen when you just focus on sexy pics-- and again I thought the point of the original thread was about THE GUITARS, not the hot looks and outfits.
The problem with your position is that the music industry utilises both musical talent and sex appeal as vital elements. The relative attractiveness of performers has been a major element since it started.
It's hardly surprising as the determining factors on what we find attractive are generally determined by genetic fitness for mating (I said generally and I'm pretty sure the scientific literature will back this up even in non-hetero couplings).

We have always rated bands depending on attractiveness regardless of gender, that's one why bands and musicians in general put so much effort into their appearance and that's why successful bands/acts tend to be "HOTT GIRLZZ" or even more commonly "HOTT GUYZ".

Your degree of offense on the behalf of someone else I'm assuming you've never met does seem to rely on you correctly judging their wishes in this matter.
From personal experience of the women I've known in bands, I'd suggest that a largish minority would subscribe to your position but a minority all the same.

Sex sells, always has, we all use it in lyrics, music or action or you're not doing it properly.

Save the outrage for really outrageous things (plenty of them in the world, have a look in Ferguson for a start).

Still, nice for me that I was introduced to their music. It's pretty cool old-school indie pop, reminds me of the Primitives from England in the post C86 days of English indie. Funnily enough there was a fair bit of discussion about their singer's appearance too... plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

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Re: Dum Dum Girls

Post by Johno » Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:40 am

I have an album by this band called 'I Will Be' which if memory serves is pretty good, punky pop stuff. Are all their albums along the same lines?

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Re: Dum Dum Girls

Post by Pacafeliz » Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:21 am

not to be sexist or so, but i've got a fever for justin bieber! :-*
i love delay SO much ...that i procrastinate all the time.

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Re: Dum Dum Girls

Post by mywhitenoise » Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:24 am

Johno wrote:I have an album by this band called 'I Will Be' which if memory serves is pretty good, punky pop stuff. Are all their albums along the same lines?
I think "Only In Dreams" is their best record, and it's similar to "I Will Be". Their latest "Too True" is their weakest, they went for a more synth rock approach.

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Re: Dum Dum Girls

Post by Jaguar018 » Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:05 am

spindizzy wrote:The problem with your position is that the music industry utilises both musical talent and sex appeal as vital elements. The relative attractiveness of performers has been a major element since it started.
It's hardly surprising as the determining factors on what we find attractive are generally determined by genetic fitness for mating (I said generally and I'm pretty sure the scientific literature will back this up even in non-hetero couplings).
My position specifically relates to threads devolving into leering at ladies, not the music industry. There are some guys on OSG that do this-- most of them don't but it doesn't mean it's okay.
spindizzy wrote:We have always rated bands depending on attractiveness regardless of gender, that's one why bands and musicians in general put so much effort into their appearance and that's why successful bands/acts tend to be "HOTT GIRLZZ" or even more commonly "HOTT GUYZ".

Your degree of offense on the behalf of someone else I'm assuming you've never met does seem to rely on you correctly judging their wishes in this matter.
From personal experience of the women I've known in bands, I'd suggest that a largish minority would subscribe to your position but a minority all the same.
My degree of offense is proportional to the topic-- a rinky dink post on the internet, and my offense is about the guys posting. I'm not trying to get in the head of the Dum Dum Girls. I'm just talking about the matter at hand. Do we really need to explain and quantify our feelings about the other horrors and wrongs of the world whenever we post something?
spindizzy wrote:Save the outrage for really outrageous things (plenty of them in the world, have a look in Ferguson for a start).
::) I will make sure I check with you any time I am bothered by something to make sure that it is properly measured according to your assessment of the world's problems. Come on, think about what you are saying here. How do you know what I, or anyone else thinks, or has talked about here or anywhere else? Do you really think we aren't aware of other issues and their relative importance?

The point that I have been trying to make is that it would be nice to not have threads about ladies in bands devolve into posting sexy pics. This website is called OSG not FHM. I play in a band with three women. They fuss over their appearance when we have a show and they want to look good-- even a bit sexy 8) . I do too, in fact I always look extra sexy. :mellow: I will readily admit that no one is quite up to the level of Dum Dum Girls, but I'd hate to have a review of my band turn into who is the hottest. I mean, I know it happens to all bands and I am the hottest by far, but I'd like us to get some recognition for the songs and execution of them (and cool gear :) ).

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Re: Dum Dum Girls

Post by llamaiguana » Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:20 pm

Saw the Dum Dum Girls open a show once. A friend reviewed their performance by saying, "The Dum Dum Girls: dumb."
They did have some sweet Danos though.

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Re: Dum Dum Girls

Post by saxjag » Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:56 pm

Some musicians look like they're trying to look cool.

And some musicians simply look cool.

Some musicians don't look like much, but nobody minds because their music is great.

And some musicians are so brilliant & charismatic that their music defines an era, and whatever they happen to look like becomes the new cool.

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Re: Dum Dum Girls

Post by saxjag » Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:08 pm

Of course even the most radical, unique look spawns imitators & melts into the mainstream...

Which reminds me of a story, & it is so good that it deserves to be true:

Performance-artist/New Wave diva Laurie Anderson was trying to get back inside the venue where she was going to perform later that night. (She had popped out for a bite or a smoke or fresh air or something.) And a woman waiting in line catches sight of her & sneers, "Oh, look. Another fucking little Laurie Anderson clone."

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Re: Dum Dum Girls

Post by Whiny Minotaur » Sat Aug 23, 2014 7:12 am

Some artists embrace the image aspect of performing and use it to their advantage, but it is sad when people pay more attention to the visual aspects of the artists and it becomes gross and creepy when it becomes overtly sexual. Nothing wrong with expressing attraction but it's just bleh. It's very offputting to see even as a guy. I guess it comes with the territory in Rock music which is actually very reliant on image, but sometimes it's not very fun to read about people fapping to artists. Too much information.

David Sylvian, who was plagued by his own image that he built during Japan dresses as nondescript as possible when performing without any theatrics whatsoever so people pay attention only to the music nowadays. It's not something that would work for everyone and I sure as hell am not suggesting that women should do that so they can deflect unwanted attraction(that's classic victim blaming there), but it's one way I guess
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Re: Dum Dum Girls

Post by Squareball » Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:26 am

Well, thanks to this thread i know know the Dum Dum girls.
i checked out their music and i like it. This is a particularly good performance for KEXP radio...
only the white Mustang on show....

http://youtu.be/wmGe2yBKIdw
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