Low 'n' Heavy: Fender Blacktop Jazzmaster HS vs. G&L Fallout
- CivoLee
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Low 'n' Heavy: Fender Blacktop Jazzmaster HS vs. G&L Fallout
Hello everyone, long time lurker (kind of; I mainly just fooled around with the Dressing Room), first time poster...
I've been playing guitar for a about 20 years now, off and on for the first 3-4 before finally getting "serious". Being a big fan of late 80s/early 90s alternative rock, I thought I'd be an offset player, but it turned out I was more of a Les Paul guy. I have a 2005 Tokai Love Rock goldtop (Gibsons are out of my current budget and I dislike the standard Epiphone Les Paul headstock - and good luck trying to find an Elitist for a reasonable price these days) as my main guitar and a Paul Reed Smith SE Standard 24 as my backup and for songs that need 24 frets and/or a whammy bar. I play a fairly wide range of music on my own (OK mostly classic/alternative rock, punk/post-punk, and occasionally I try my hand at funk with varying results), but the band I'm in plays metal. Soundwise, I'd say we're a mix of groove metal with occasional proggy and stoner bits, though our frontman is a big fan of Lamb of God (I like them too, but as far as that kind of metal goes I'm more into Mastodon and Shadows Fall- remember them?) so there's definitely a touch of their sound in ours. We also throw in few deathcore and djent influences so that we're not totally a throwback band.
I feel like we've been getting into a rut as far as the tonality of our songs...we tune to drop Db pretty much all the time now (we had one song in Eb standard but we dropped it) and our songs reflect that. To mix things up a bit, I started writing a few songs in Bb standard and drop Ab, and looked for a baritone or 7-string to play them on. I found a great deal on a first year Schecter 007, and while it's a great instrument I haven't really been bonding with it the way I feel I should be. It's not so much the width of the neck - though that did take a little getting used to - it's more that it often feels like it has too many strings, and the lowest string is too high to chug comfortably (remember, we're talking metal here ). Plus, I recently decided to change its tuning from standard 7-string tuning (BEADGBE, down one half step) to something more akin to a baritone (BEADF#BE, again down one half step) and had an epiphany - it felt more natural and "right", if that means anything.
So I'm probably going to trade it in. I don't want to go full baritone; I'm not a real big guy and a 27.5 inch scale neck might be too much of a reach for the first few frets. I like the idea Reverend have with their Descent models, but spending $800-$1000 with my income is way too much for a sometimes guitar. Yamaha had a nice concept with their Drop 6 models, but they don't make anything like that now and they seem to have disappeared from the used market (plus the one model has a Floyd Rose and I am NOT messing around with one of those again). Caparison have their HGS models, but they're even more expensive than the Reverends. But then I thought, "why not just get a regular 25.5 inch scale guitar and put on a set of heavy gauge strings? The Schecter has a 25.5 inch scale and it seems to hold tuning/intonation just fine." I'm not really a fan of strat/superstrat-style guitars, so I think I'm gonna go offset this time. I played a Blacktop Jazzmaster HS a while back when they were new and liked it a lot, but they seem to mostly be out there in the 3-tone sunburst finish; my PRS is sunburst, so I'd want the black finish. Another model I've been considering is the G&L Fallout (a Tribute model, customs are out of my price range). I could get one of those fairly cheap and in black (the other finishes just aren't metal enough ).
Anyone have any thoughts on using one of these models for the above purpose? I have concerns about the floating tremolo on the Jazzmaster causing tuning stability issues when in a tuning it wasn't designed for; are they unfounded? The Fallout's hardtail design might be a safer bet, but one review I read of the guitar said it was neck heavy due to its relatively small body; is this true? Also, some of you might think of suggesting the Squier Contemporary Series Active Jazzmaster or even a Charvel Skatecaster if I want a more metal-focused offset. I'd prefer the Blacktop Jazzy/Fallout's HS configuration since I've found through the 007 that the middle position of HS guitars sounds heavenly for deep cleans. Plus, I've never played a Squier that didn't feel "cheap" to me, even a "higher end" model (I've had a Vista Jagmaster and a Master Series M80 in the past). As for the Skatecaster, in addition to having an HH pickup configuration (the Surfcaster, its original 90s relative has become very rare and expensive, plus Eastwood don't seem interested in adding a reissue of the HS model alongside their SS and 12-string reissues), it has a 16" radius fingerboard, and I'm not a fan of flat fingerboards...
PS I know the Fallout doesn't technically count as an offset by the rules of this board
I've been playing guitar for a about 20 years now, off and on for the first 3-4 before finally getting "serious". Being a big fan of late 80s/early 90s alternative rock, I thought I'd be an offset player, but it turned out I was more of a Les Paul guy. I have a 2005 Tokai Love Rock goldtop (Gibsons are out of my current budget and I dislike the standard Epiphone Les Paul headstock - and good luck trying to find an Elitist for a reasonable price these days) as my main guitar and a Paul Reed Smith SE Standard 24 as my backup and for songs that need 24 frets and/or a whammy bar. I play a fairly wide range of music on my own (OK mostly classic/alternative rock, punk/post-punk, and occasionally I try my hand at funk with varying results), but the band I'm in plays metal. Soundwise, I'd say we're a mix of groove metal with occasional proggy and stoner bits, though our frontman is a big fan of Lamb of God (I like them too, but as far as that kind of metal goes I'm more into Mastodon and Shadows Fall- remember them?) so there's definitely a touch of their sound in ours. We also throw in few deathcore and djent influences so that we're not totally a throwback band.
I feel like we've been getting into a rut as far as the tonality of our songs...we tune to drop Db pretty much all the time now (we had one song in Eb standard but we dropped it) and our songs reflect that. To mix things up a bit, I started writing a few songs in Bb standard and drop Ab, and looked for a baritone or 7-string to play them on. I found a great deal on a first year Schecter 007, and while it's a great instrument I haven't really been bonding with it the way I feel I should be. It's not so much the width of the neck - though that did take a little getting used to - it's more that it often feels like it has too many strings, and the lowest string is too high to chug comfortably (remember, we're talking metal here ). Plus, I recently decided to change its tuning from standard 7-string tuning (BEADGBE, down one half step) to something more akin to a baritone (BEADF#BE, again down one half step) and had an epiphany - it felt more natural and "right", if that means anything.
So I'm probably going to trade it in. I don't want to go full baritone; I'm not a real big guy and a 27.5 inch scale neck might be too much of a reach for the first few frets. I like the idea Reverend have with their Descent models, but spending $800-$1000 with my income is way too much for a sometimes guitar. Yamaha had a nice concept with their Drop 6 models, but they don't make anything like that now and they seem to have disappeared from the used market (plus the one model has a Floyd Rose and I am NOT messing around with one of those again). Caparison have their HGS models, but they're even more expensive than the Reverends. But then I thought, "why not just get a regular 25.5 inch scale guitar and put on a set of heavy gauge strings? The Schecter has a 25.5 inch scale and it seems to hold tuning/intonation just fine." I'm not really a fan of strat/superstrat-style guitars, so I think I'm gonna go offset this time. I played a Blacktop Jazzmaster HS a while back when they were new and liked it a lot, but they seem to mostly be out there in the 3-tone sunburst finish; my PRS is sunburst, so I'd want the black finish. Another model I've been considering is the G&L Fallout (a Tribute model, customs are out of my price range). I could get one of those fairly cheap and in black (the other finishes just aren't metal enough ).
Anyone have any thoughts on using one of these models for the above purpose? I have concerns about the floating tremolo on the Jazzmaster causing tuning stability issues when in a tuning it wasn't designed for; are they unfounded? The Fallout's hardtail design might be a safer bet, but one review I read of the guitar said it was neck heavy due to its relatively small body; is this true? Also, some of you might think of suggesting the Squier Contemporary Series Active Jazzmaster or even a Charvel Skatecaster if I want a more metal-focused offset. I'd prefer the Blacktop Jazzy/Fallout's HS configuration since I've found through the 007 that the middle position of HS guitars sounds heavenly for deep cleans. Plus, I've never played a Squier that didn't feel "cheap" to me, even a "higher end" model (I've had a Vista Jagmaster and a Master Series M80 in the past). As for the Skatecaster, in addition to having an HH pickup configuration (the Surfcaster, its original 90s relative has become very rare and expensive, plus Eastwood don't seem interested in adding a reissue of the HS model alongside their SS and 12-string reissues), it has a 16" radius fingerboard, and I'm not a fan of flat fingerboards...
PS I know the Fallout doesn't technically count as an offset by the rules of this board
- Ceylon
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Re: Low 'n' Heavy: Fender Blacktop Jazzmaster HS vs. G&L Fallout
I have no experience with either of those specific guitars actually, but the long strings behind the bridge on the Jazzmaster are great for keeping string tension while tuning down. I remember Lee Ranaldo said something to that effect in an interview with Fender that I watched years back, and I usually keep my JM tuned to an open C-ish chord with a .052-.054, and that works well. With heavier strings I bet going deeper wouldn't be a problem at all.
Science Friction burns my fingers
Electricity still lingers
Electricity still lingers
- Embenny
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Re: Low 'n' Heavy: Fender Blacktop Jazzmaster HS vs. G&L Fallout
I can't think of a less-Djent-able guitar than a Jazzmaster with a traditional trem, like the Blacktop. With high gain, palm muting, and staccato bursts of silence, you're just going to be hearing the ringing behind the bridge in ways that do not suit that genre at all.
Any offset with a hardtail or strat-type bridge would be fine with the right pickups though.
Any offset with a hardtail or strat-type bridge would be fine with the right pickups though.
The artist formerly known as mbene085.
- marqueemoon
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Re: Low 'n' Heavy: Fender Blacktop Jazzmaster HS vs. G&L Fallout
Fallout, or look at the new hardtail active Squier JM that just came out.
- CivoLee
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Re: Low 'n' Heavy: Fender Blacktop Jazzmaster HS vs. G&L Fallout
Couldn't a noise gate filter that out, though?mbene085 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:43 amI can't think of a less-Djent-able guitar than a Jazzmaster with a traditional trem, like the Blacktop. With high gain, palm muting, and staccato bursts of silence, you're just going to be hearing the ringing behind the bridge in ways that do not suit that genre at all.
Any offset with a hardtail or strat-type bridge would be fine with the right pickups though.
Another model I like is the Modern Player Marauder, but again black ones are rarer than blue ones, which are rare enough already. Plus the prices on the used market have been climbing beyond what I think is appropriate for a guitar made in China that originally retailed for about $400...
- jesterpunk68
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Re: Low 'n' Heavy: Fender Blacktop Jazzmaster HS vs. G&L Fallout
Jim Root for Slipknot/ Stone Sour used a blacktop jazzmaster with an EMG hum bucker in the bridge before getting his signature jazzmaster.
If the video doesnt show the time right its around 9:37 in the video.
https://youtu.be/xH1g-h7fLio?t=9m37s
If the video doesnt show the time right its around 9:37 in the video.
https://youtu.be/xH1g-h7fLio?t=9m37s
- Embenny
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Re: Low 'n' Heavy: Fender Blacktop Jazzmaster HS vs. G&L Fallout
My personal approach is that avoiding noise is infinitely preffrable to controlling it. It's just added expense and effort for an end result that is less optimal than avoiding it in the first place.CivoLee wrote: ↑Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:01 amCouldn't a noise gate filter that out, though?mbene085 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:43 amI can't think of a less-Djent-able guitar than a Jazzmaster with a traditional trem, like the Blacktop. With high gain, palm muting, and staccato bursts of silence, you're just going to be hearing the ringing behind the bridge in ways that do not suit that genre at all.
Any offset with a hardtail or strat-type bridge would be fine with the right pickups though.
Another model I like is the Modern Player Marauder, but again black ones are rarer than blue ones, which are rare enough already. Plus the prices on the used market have been climbing beyond what I think is appropriate for a guitar made in China that originally retailed for about $400...
There are many offsets with bridges that would lend themselves to Djent-y palm muting, and you haven't made your purchase yet, so I would just go for any of those. Just my two cents.
The artist formerly known as mbene085.
- sirspens
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Re: Low 'n' Heavy: Fender Blacktop Jazzmaster HS vs. G&L Fallout
I thought I'd have some fun by complicating your life with some fun 25.5" humbucking guitars
Schecter Ultra II
https://reverb.com/item/14885063-schect ... ccessories
Schecter Hellcat
https://reverb.com/item/15030147-schecter-hellcat
Schecter Banshee
https://reverb.com/item/14241411-schect ... tolex-case
G&L F-100
https://reverb.com/item/14683116-g-l-f- ... -1980-s249
G&L Tribute Comanche
Sorry for the Strat-body, but the Z-coils are really interesting hum-canceling pickups.
https://reverb.com/item/7264186-g-l-tri ... mpic-white
Epiphone Firebird
https://reverb.com/item/13297593-epipho ... ups-cherry
Music Man Stingray
https://reverb.com/item/14490177-sterli ... ric-guitar
By all means, don't forget the singular
Fender Telecaster Deluxe
https://reverb.com/item/15238297-fender ... 003-walnut
I hope this makes it easier on you.
Schecter Ultra II
https://reverb.com/item/14885063-schect ... ccessories
Schecter Hellcat
https://reverb.com/item/15030147-schecter-hellcat
Schecter Banshee
https://reverb.com/item/14241411-schect ... tolex-case
G&L F-100
https://reverb.com/item/14683116-g-l-f- ... -1980-s249
G&L Tribute Comanche
Sorry for the Strat-body, but the Z-coils are really interesting hum-canceling pickups.
https://reverb.com/item/7264186-g-l-tri ... mpic-white
Epiphone Firebird
https://reverb.com/item/13297593-epipho ... ups-cherry
Music Man Stingray
https://reverb.com/item/14490177-sterli ... ric-guitar
By all means, don't forget the singular
Fender Telecaster Deluxe
https://reverb.com/item/15238297-fender ... 003-walnut
I hope this makes it easier on you.
- Kadenray
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Re: Low 'n' Heavy: Fender Blacktop Jazzmaster HS vs. G&L Fallout
just get the Blacktop Jazzmaster and put a better bridge on it. I had one. bought it used off Ebay, it was a solid guitar. I destroyed it (by accident) then used the neck pickup in my parts Jazzmaster. the bridge pickup can be a little muddy, but nothing amp or pedal settings cant correct. Plus if anything happens to it, its cheap to replace.
- CivoLee
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Re: Low 'n' Heavy: Fender Blacktop Jazzmaster HS vs. G&L Fallout
Thanks for the suggestions, but:
- I've never really cared for the Ultra body style.
- That Hellcat is cool. I'd likely be replacing the pickguard, though.
- The original Banshee aesthetic was a little too weird (a 5 x 1 headstock? Seriously, Schecter?) for my tastes, like it was trying too hard for a "quirky retro" vibe but ended up just being ugly.
- The F-100 is out of my projected price range.
- The Tribute Comanche is an interesting suggestion. I didn't think that guitar could do heavy stuff, but a few YouTube videos I've watched make me think otherwise. I'd look for a black one, though.
- Pretty sure that Firebird is 24.75 like all of the other Gibson/Epiphone Firebird designs are. I was looking at an ESP/LTD Phoenix, which is 25.5.
- I like the Stringray, but as far as Music Man/Sterling guitars go, I'm more into the Albert Lee model.
- I wouldn't feel right playing a Telecaster in this group, since our frontman likes Tele-style guitars but hasn't been able to get a good deal on the one he likes.
- s_mcsleazy
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Re: Low 'n' Heavy: Fender Blacktop Jazzmaster HS vs. G&L Fallout
you mention baritones. i dont think there is anything with a baritone you cant get used to. hell, i just finished building a baritone jazzmaster
but out of all the options mentioned above. the hellcat is the one i'd go for if you must have a normal scale guitar to tune down. while this is not a song that's tuned down, i think it's a good example of the great sound of a hellcat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGjnU78ARdc
but out of all the options mentioned above. the hellcat is the one i'd go for if you must have a normal scale guitar to tune down. while this is not a song that's tuned down, i think it's a good example of the great sound of a hellcat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGjnU78ARdc
offset guitars resident bass player.
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- CivoLee
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Re: Low 'n' Heavy: Fender Blacktop Jazzmaster HS vs. G&L Fallout
That video is cool. The singer is playing a USA Hellcat, because at that time Schecter didn't have a Hellcat in the Diamond Series.s_mcsleazy wrote: ↑Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:33 pmbut out of all the options mentioned above. the hellcat is the one i'd go for if you must have a normal scale guitar to tune down. while this is not a song that's tuned down, i think it's a good example of the great sound of a hellcat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGjnU78ARdc
If someone really wanted to get an idea of how a detuned Hellcat sounded, they could check out a demonstration of the Hellcat VI and ignore the bottom string sounds.
- CivoLee
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Re: Low 'n' Heavy: Fender Blacktop Jazzmaster HS vs. G&L Fallout
I had a thought regarding the Firebird...even though the scale length is 24.75, would the relatively long string length behind the nut help maintain string tension, as well as the 20:1 tuners? Since I'm primarily a Les Paul player, if I could get away with low tunings on a Gibson-scale instrument, I'd prefer to...
- sirspens
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Re: Low 'n' Heavy: Fender Blacktop Jazzmaster HS vs. G&L Fallout
I have no clue why I have had it in my head -- for a long time -- that the Firebird has a scale of 25.5". You are right, it is 24.75".CivoLee wrote: ↑Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:56 pmI had a thought regarding the Firebird...even though the scale length is 24.75, would the relatively long string length behind the nut help maintain string tension, as well as the 20:1 tuners? Since I'm primarily a Les Paul player, if I could get away with low tunings on a Gibson-scale instrument, I'd prefer to...
- Ceylon
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Re: Low 'n' Heavy: Fender Blacktop Jazzmaster HS vs. G&L Fallout
I think it's some models of the Gibson RD that are 25,5", so that might be where you got it from.sirspens wrote: ↑Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:21 pmI have no clue why I have had it in my head -- for a long time -- that the Firebird has a scale of 25.5". You are right, it is 24.75".CivoLee wrote: ↑Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:56 pmI had a thought regarding the Firebird...even though the scale length is 24.75, would the relatively long string length behind the nut help maintain string tension, as well as the 20:1 tuners? Since I'm primarily a Les Paul player, if I could get away with low tunings on a Gibson-scale instrument, I'd prefer to...
And hey, there's that Epiphone Signature RD, the Lee Malia, that they're seemingly blowing out at the moment, although then you're stuck with the Epiphone headstock anyway.
EDIT: I see that one has a 24,75" neck, so never mind.
Science Friction burns my fingers
Electricity still lingers
Electricity still lingers