Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

[Larsongs]

I own USA Martins & Bozeman Gibsons & have for many years. I was at Winter NAMM & the USA Gibson & Martin lines were excellent.. You'll more than likely buy & sell lots of Acoustic Guitars & in your quest for the best Acoustic Guitar & will end up with a Martin or a Gibson.. Sometimes you've got & learn on your own..

Taylor's while being well built just sound sterile to me..

Offshore built Guilds don't sound anything like USA Guilds to me.. Pretty much like other Offshore Acoustic Guitars..

Collings & Eastmans are also excellent Guitars.. As are USA Guilds..

[Scout]

Taylors of course have a a bolt-on neck. Sure to make it sound different, personally I've always liked Gibsons for pairing with vocals despite living near the Martin factory. If you're up for a road trip head to Nashville, or online deal with a reputable well established dealer, Carter, Gruhn on the east coast, Norman's rare guitars on the west all have huge selections. There is no substitute for playing it live that I can think of as impossible as that is right now.

[Larry Mal]

Taylor seems to voice their guitars a little differently. It's hard to say that definitively, because there are several iterations of Taylor and at least three different bracing patterns I can think of, with the new "V" bracing being probably the most infamous.

Regardless, it seems that Taylors kind of focus on a really clear and present high end. That can certainly take some getting used to.

It took me a while to get used to what the Gibson sound is, also. If your idea of what an acoustic guitar sounds like is shaped by Martins, then you'll have a little time adjusting to other things.

Martins of course tend to sound like Martins, also. I was playing the CEO-7 of theirs, which is an excellent guitar, and it looks exactly like a Gibson L-00 in shape and all that. Sounds nothing like it. Sounds like a Martin dread in a smaller body.

[seenoevil II]

I don't preach my views regarding veganism, but some musicians do. Then they play hide glued, bone nut, bone saddled guitars. Go figure.

I have trouble making decisions. Especially expensive ones. Im really good at researching topics to the point where they lose all meaning and I start saying shit like, "there's no such thing as a 'bad' _________. It's all about context." I've learned to accept that in certain situations, I just need to pick one and stop thinking about it (hopefully forever).

That's why I like to have an x factor make my mind up for me. A really good deal, or a random opportunity, or a really good first impression made in person.

I just think a "serious"acoustic is something every self respecting adult "serious" musician needs. I used to host open mics for dough and watch a parade of kids under 25 with their US made guitars.

I've also learned that perception is more important than we'd like to admit. If I want to seem like somebody who belongs on stage/your speaker, it helps to not have a beginner's guitar.

[Larry Mal]

Not sure what to tell you about the hide glue, but you could always buy fossilized walrus tusk saddles and shit. Those things died a long time ago and at least you would know nothing was harmed in making them. It would seem you have to draw the line somewhere, otherwise you couldn't use petroleum to drive your cars and whatnot.

Regardless, a new guitar will inspire you and you know it will or you wouldn't be wanting one.

What about an LG-2 American Eagle?

It's like what you were going for with the LG-0 except made to Gibson's modern standards of hand scalloped bracing, all solid woods, 1.725" nut width*, and Bozeman quality. And Bozeman quality should mean a lot, I have eight guitars from there and each of them is tremendous. I would buy another dozen if I had the money.


*Almost every Gibson acoustic is listed as having a 1.725" nut, but all of mine actually have wider nuts than that to some degree or the other, for instance that J-60 I keep babbling about is a flat 1.75" which is what I tend to prefer.

The exception to this is a 12 fret L-00, which is an even 1.725", and is the only one of all of them that actually claimed to have a 1.75" nut. Go figure.

[gadabout]

....
Maybe I'll just go off looks then learn to love whatever it sounds/plays like. That seems like how it was done in olden times. IDK. Thoughts?

In “olden times”, people had one guitar.

[BlueSparkle]

in "olden times" they didn't have electricity.... let alone rock n roll....

[seenoevil II]

in "olden times" they didn't have electricity.... let alone rock n roll....

In olden times, the earth was a just a bunch of dust and guitar strings were made of plasma

[Larsongs]

I don't preach my views regarding veganism, but some musicians do. Then they play hide glued, bone nut, bone saddled guitars. Go figure.

I have trouble making decisions. Especially expensive ones. Im really good at researching topics to the point where they lose all meaning and I start saying shit like, "there's no such thing as a 'bad' _________. It's all about context." I've learned to accept that in certain situations, I just need to pick one and stop thinking about it (hopefully forever).

That's why I like to have an x factor make my mind up for me. A really good deal, or a random opportunity, or a really good first impression made in person.

I just think a "serious"acoustic is something every self respecting adult "serious" musician needs. I used to host open mics for dough and watch a parade of kids under 25 with their US made guitars.

I've also learned that perception is more important than we'd like to admit. If I want to seem like somebody who belongs on stage/your speaker, it helps to not have a beginner's guitar.

I have had more hassle trying to do returns or do an exchange with Brick & Mortar Stores than any Online Retailer in the many many years of buying Guitars, Amps & other Music Gear..

Online is the easiest.. Usually the fastest too.

One can certainly take it to extremes... What about cutting down living Trees? Endangered Woods.. Petroleum used to for the Plastics Pick guards, or Paint that is harmful to the Air we breathe, Strings that come from Steel forged in high pollution Steel Mills etc etc...

You gotta ask yourself do you want to run for Politics or play a Guitar?

If you can afford the best, buy the best.. For the past 100 years or more most Professional Musicians have played & recorded more with Martin & Gibson Guitars than any other Brand.. There's a reason.. Particularly the Martin D-28 & Gibson J-45.. They are consistently the Bar by which most every other Manufacturer emulates & tries to create their versions of.

If you can afford a Martin D-45 or a Gibson J-200 even better... Arguably the best Acoustic Guitars period.

If you can't afford the best buy the closest thing possible..

I'm just stating the facts..

[barryd]

I think all guitars need to "speak to you" in some way and this can happen straight away or after some time. playing one in a store will help with the feel and sense that it might be something special and it might just grab your attention from the off. As others have said it does also depend on what style of playing you are doing - and what you want the guitar to do. I did a load of research online before i ordered a Martin D-15s online because i just couldnt find one in a store a number of years ago. all the article videos and soundbites told me i needed a dreadnought, a Martin, an all solid body etc etc. and the "s" meant slightly shorter scale slotted head which suited by spanish nylon guitar experience. unfortunately what i got was never checked from when it left the factory and it needed an expensive full re-fret. After that the guitar played great, looked great, sounded great but I never really bonded with it - the size as it turns out wasn't what i was comfortable with on a day to day basis - for fingerpicking i needed heavier gauge strings to drive the soundboard and i found myself more and more going back to my Seagull parlour guitar in preference though it was 1/3 price. I had walked into a store that had the seagull and fell in love with it straight away and was in perfect condition from the off - it's hanging on my wall still, the Martin i sold on.

It's horses for courses but it was an expensive lesson for me - now i wouldn't say no to a smaller bodied Martin.... but i'd need to play it first. the reason i am on this forum is because i walked into a guitar store near me to buy an electric guitar expecting to pick up a Les paul or some hollowbody and couldn't believe how comfortable a Jaguar felt to play and how nice it sounded so that's what I got! These difficult times will pass and your guitar stores - and all other stores will really need your business after it so if you can hold on I would try to

[Larry Mal]

I think all guitars need to "speak to you" in some way and this can happen straight away or after some time. playing one in a store will help with the feel and sense that it might be something special and it might just grab your attention from the off. As others have said it does also depend on what style of playing you are doing - and what you want the guitar to do.

While I don't disagree with that, I thought to mention that I have found it fun to have guitars delivered to me and see how I adapt to that. There's new sounds to discover in each type of acoustic and my playing goes in different directions depending on what the guitar's strengths are.

Like, the sort of player that I am changes on what the instrument seems to want to do.

You and I both wandered in to a guitar store, found an offset guitar, played it and fell in love with it. But if a person who only ever played Strats never saw a Jazzmaster in the store, which is very possible especially back in the day, should they not order one? Because I say of course they should, and when it comes, if they bond with it then it will take them in all new directions same as the offsets we found in the stores did.

I guess that's just me. I am wide open to things like this and I've had any number of guitars shipped to me that I would not have found in the stores. I didn't ever play a Firebird before I bought one, and now if that could be my only electric I would be fine.

Acoustics are a little different, though. Like you say, if you want to fingerpick, then maybe don't get the J-200. If you are planning to accompany your singing and you aren't the loudest singer, maybe don't get a big rosewood dreadnaught that can drown out your voice with its drive and power.

This will bring me to something that I learned from spending so much time with Gibsons, but it of course applies to other guitar makers also. As I say, I never used to see many Gibson acoustics out there and when I did I wasn't always impressed.

Martins have that big Martin sound, lots of bass, lots of resonance, power and typically sustain. Gibsons are more dry, typically not heavy on sustain, quick attack, quick decay.

Anybody who spends much time with synthesizers will be familiar with the ADSR envelope. Gibsons tend to- tend to!- have a faster attack, a quicker decay, less sustain and a faster release than the typical big Martin dread sound.

If you played one against another in a guitar store, then you might conclude that Martins are "better", louder, easy to drive, powerful.

But all those things about Gibsons are actually strengths, because what Gibsons do is fit in. They sit in the mix easy, microphones love them, they fit voice well.

I could make a same case for Taylor, Taylors are known for being more focused in the high registers. This can sound lacking compared to the bass heavy sound of a Martin dread, then again, that just means that Taylors have less low end adding mud to the registers where dedicated bass instruments are already living.

Martin dreadnaughts were actually advertised in the earliest days as being "bass guitars" and they were a response to the acoustic guitar being drowned out by other instruments. They were able to "fight back" as it were, but sometimes you want your acoustic to just sit down and fit in more than anything else.

None of this is me saying that the Martin sound is bad or that dreadnaughts are bad. Both are great. I'm just kind of talking about some things I've learned over my recent years of being much more focused on acoustic guitar than electric.

[Pepe Silvia]

I hate gear shopping at guitar stores. I don't like putting on a performance so I keep my volume low and then am overpowered by someone playing Erruption very loudly. If I am testing an amp or effects I am doing a lot of knob turning, a lot of strumming open chords. Or same with testing a guitar, it's a lot of futzing around and I feel insecure that I'm not showing off with some sick riffs.

My Jazzmaster and my bass were bought sight unseen. My SG, I met a guy in a parking lot and checked that everything worked with a battery powered amp and handed over the cash. Now that I think of it, I have never bought a guitar in a store. I would rather just order a used guitar online and resell it for the same price if I don't like it. It takes me a few weeks of playing at home to decide if I like a guitar or not.

[barryd]

Actually this just reminded me of how when starting to buy guitars and the internet wasn't what it is now- I was very intimidated by guitar store staff (some surly, some pretentious and some just rude!) and the store environment in general so i fully understand the online thing - particularly if you can return it. As my experience grew i would go into a store having done some decent research so i could ignore poor advice (to me) or attitude and just put something in my hand to feel. I agree you don't really get to know or like some guitars until you've had them a while at home but just sitting the thing on your lap, feeling the neck width, balance etc. is a great help in my mind if possible for something that you are hoping or planning to have to "see you out" as my dad would put it. If it's GAS or just trying something different then maybe this isn't such a big deal.

I've always wanted the one guitar to do it all in terms of what I wanted out of guitar - i thought a solid wood spanish nylon string was it...it's still my biggest purchase and what i'd grab first if my house was on fire (after the family of course ). That Martin D-15s was supposed to be my steel string equivalent but as nice as it was it didn't work out and i think if i'd had the chance to play it a few times i would have reconsidered and probably got the 00-15 or 000-15 (i love the affordability and sound of the mahogany wood guitars) - but I think if i do this now or in the future i will want to play it first...even the biggest names in instrument making have off-days or quality issues now and again.

i have no idea what possessed me to get a Jaguar after years of playing acoustic but there you go.... that was a dose of GAS

[seenoevil II]

Larry, that's a great analogy with the ADSR envelope. From videos I've noticed that while Martins tend to have a lot "more," Gibsons tend to be a bit less, a bit more scooped, and bit more cinematic or panoramic.

That's a good hint with the "American Eagle" That name makes it sound like a 30" scale length SJ-200 with"don't tread on me" inlayed on the fret board.
But it seems like a cool little guitar.

Here's what I'd like tone wise. I play alone even with an electric. As such I use a lot of heterophony in my playing. I love JMs because the E and A can lay down a booming deep bass note and I can put an artulate chord melody in top of it.

The little I've noticed with flat tops is that I like how smaller bodies articulate notes in big chords in a way that they can get lost in the boom of dreadnoughts. Contrast that with how I like the deep bass swell of larger bodies.

I guess it's about what EQ "landscape" I want to work inside. I'm a big guy, so larger body sizes aren't an issue. Although a Guild M-20 might look a little silly on me. Somebody mentioned "running the racks" as something they don't miss, but I think that's exactly what I need.

Barry, I think we're very similar in what we're looking for in terms a classical like all rounder. One of the most interesting guitars I nearly bought was a Gibson F-25 . It's a B 25 x braced body with a non slotted peghead but with flat non rafiused fingerboard that's 2" at the nut and saddle like a classical. The one I played was a great deal and in great shape. The only reason I didn't get it was because thumb wrapping is a big part of my playing that I just can't do on a neck that wide. Completely fantastic guitar though.

I agree with the sentiment that guitar stores can be the worst sometimes. I hate the dudes who just have out playing blues riffs because they're bored. The teens in the worst part of the Dunning Kruger curve who think we're excited to hear their math rock emo riffs. Meanwhile, I'm wrestling with myself whether I want to unload my savings on an es 335, repeatedly strumming open chords struggling to hear the tone while dudes scoff that I'm too unskilled for the guitar they think I don't deserve.

The best guitar store experience I've ever had was in Seattle. Dusty String in Fremont. It felt like a country club. They only had good stuff and the sales people kept their distance.

[Larsongs]

Who cares what others think about your Guitar vs your skill.. The better Guitar you have the faster & easier it is to become more skillful...

If you Thumb wrap a Gibson J-45 is easier than a Martin D28.. Also, the J-45 has a smaller Round Shoulderd Body. Excellent Guitars!

I use these Guitars as an example because below these models they weren't/aren't generally considered Pro Guitars by most Pro's in my experience.. The J-45 & the D-28 being the beginning of what most serious working Pro's & Recording Artists have considered to be Professional Series Guitars for about 100 years....

If you afford the best buy the best...

A Gibson ES335 is a great Guitar to have in your Tool box... That's one I'll never sell...