50th Anniversary Jaguar Has Arrived!

Discussion of newer designs, copies and reissue offset-waist instruments.
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The Dead Ranch Hands
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Re: 50th Anniversary Jaguar Has Arrived!

Post by The Dead Ranch Hands » Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:18 pm

The Johnny Marr Jaguar is huge. A great take on the Jag while staying true to the spirit of the original. The incorrect trem placement on these 50th anniversary models makes me totally uninterested in them. Wouldn't even keep one if it were given to me. I'd sell it and get the Johnny Marr sig, or have one built to my specs.

So on the one hand, it's great the Jaguar and Jazzmaster are getting more attention from Fender, but I have zero interest in the majority of the new ones with the fubar'd trems.

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Re: 50th Anniversary Jaguar Has Arrived!

Post by Grey » Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:08 pm

Whats with all the griping over the moved trem? The guitar plays better with the steeper break angle and you don't need to shim the neck or install a buzzstop. This whole form over function thing bewilders me, and it dosen't even look bad.

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Re: 50th Anniversary Jaguar Has Arrived!

Post by pad » Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:24 pm

Grey.exe wrote:Whats with all the griping over the moved trem? The guitar plays better with the steeper break angle and you don't need to shim the neck or install a buzzstop. This whole form over function thing bewilders me, and it dosen't even look bad.
but the vintage correct jag is more variabel.
because you can play with the long behind the bridge mensure or install a buzzstop
with the moved trem its not possible to be not in buzzstop-mode

but atleast these new ones should increase the value of vintage jags for offsetpeople?

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Re: 50th Anniversary Jaguar Has Arrived!

Post by FIREBOT » Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:53 am

Grey.exe wrote:Whats with all the griping over the moved trem? The guitar plays better with the steeper break angle and you don't need to shim the neck or install a buzzstop. This whole form over function thing bewilders me, and it dosen't even look bad.

+1

...I just do not get how much this bothers people...

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Re: 50th Anniversary Jaguar Has Arrived!

Post by Hoops » Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:14 am

Grey.exe wrote:Whats with all the griping over the moved trem? The guitar plays better with the steeper break angle and you don't need to shim the neck or install a buzzstop. This whole form over function thing bewilders me, and it dosen't even look bad.
I've found on the Jags I've played with the moved trem it just doesn't feel as nice as the vintage position, I've got an MIJ and the trem action feels much smoother than on the CPs I've played. And aesthetically it leaves empty space behind the tremolo which makes the guitar looked cluttered.

Also you don't need a buzz stop or even neck shims to set up a Jag/JM properly so it doesn't buzz or go out of tune, read a guide and take your time and it's easy.

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Re: 50th Anniversary Jaguar Has Arrived!

Post by dnv » Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:34 am

FIREBOT wrote:
Grey.exe wrote:Whats with all the griping over the moved trem? The guitar plays better with the steeper break angle and you don't need to shim the neck or install a buzzstop. This whole form over function thing bewilders me, and it dosen't even look bad.

+1

...I just do not get how much this bothers people...
it may not look bad, but it looks "wrong". if, like me, you've spent years looking at jazzmasters and jaguars, it just looks weird with the trem moved. if they had put out a newly designed guitar that also used the JM trem and had it closer to the bridge, i probably wouldn't think it looked wrong. that being said, i completely understand if someone is new to offsets and doesn't really notice the difference.

but the thing that bothers me the most is that it's an unnecessary, irreversible change. up until this jag, all the guitars with the trem in the new position had a different bridge than the original JM bridge (i think... correct me if i'm wrong about this), which solves the problem of strings skipping if you play hard and/or your guitar is not properly set up, making moving the trem pointless. i don't know, it's just the principle that bothers me. i don't see the point in making further changes to a guitar when you've already fixed an issue, and all these further changes do is make the guitar look odd.

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Re: 50th Anniversary Jaguar Has Arrived!

Post by MigJim » Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:56 am

dnv wrote:
FIREBOT wrote:
Grey.exe wrote:Whats with all the griping over the moved trem? The guitar plays better with the steeper break angle and you don't need to shim the neck or install a buzzstop. This whole form over function thing bewilders me, and it dosen't even look bad.

+1

...I just do not get how much this bothers people...
it may not look bad, but it looks "wrong"

Couldn't have said it better myself

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Re: 50th Anniversary Jaguar Has Arrived!

Post by empyrean » Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:03 am

Grey.exe wrote:Whats with all the griping over the moved trem? The guitar plays better with the steeper break angle and you don't need to shim the neck or install a buzzstop. This whole form over function thing bewilders me, and it dosen't even look bad.
Like I was saying before, it's not that they moved it that is my main issue with it. It's that they are advertising this guitar as a classic:

"Our 50th Anniversary Jaguar guitar takes you back to 1962, when Fender introduced an unusual new guitar that paired the sleek Jazzmaster® body style and elaborate control layout with a shorter scale and smaller, brighter pickups with more output. The resulting Jaguar was the fourth and last of Fender’s original lineup of standard electric guitars. Perfectly matched to the early-’60s renaissance in design modernism, the Jaguar gradually acquired a fascinating pedigree quite unlike that of any other Fender guitar."

So why move the trem on this model? It's almost like this is supposed to surpass the AVRI in vintageness. If they moved it and said, "Here is the new Jaguar Deluxe, with an improved tremelo placement. Here's why, blah blah blah, and it will be standard from now on." Then power to them, it's their company and they can do whatever they want. Clearly they are the manufacturers and they must have received enough complaints (whether they are actually valid, or just people who don't know how to set them up doesn't really matter to them, the average joe guitar player is who they are trying to please, remember that people) for them to change the design of one of their models.

If they still made AVRIs and maybe one more model of the AVRI with B&B or something, those who hate the placement will still be relatively happy and would buy them. Everyone wins. This is supposed to be a limited run of guitars celebrating the Jaguar which has existed with the original trem much longer than the new, so again, if they launched a new jaguar model, we couldn't really gripe (well, we could and I guess most here in fact would) because they would be setting a precedent. A lot of us love our CP jags/jazzys and don't mind the trem, but we always knew we were getting a redesigned modern take on them. It wasn't a 1966 reissue MIM Jaguar for example and they never claimed to have any connection with anything vintage.

Their description is much more honest than the 50th anniversary. "The Classic Player Jaguar® Special guitar updates the time-honored Jaguar® model with several thoroughly modern improvements, including hotter pickups, cut switch, Adjusto-Matic™ bridge, 9.5” fingerboard radius and neck pocket with increased back-angle for improved stability and sustain."

It just seems weird that they are slowly making changes to these models and still advertising them as though they are vintage spec or will play exactly the same as the originals. It rubs me the wrong way, not sure why. Ok, rant over. :)

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Re: 50th Anniversary Jaguar Has Arrived!

Post by FIREBOT » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:51 am

dnv wrote:
FIREBOT wrote:
Grey.exe wrote:Whats with all the griping over the moved trem? The guitar plays better with the steeper break angle and you don't need to shim the neck or install a buzzstop. This whole form over function thing bewilders me, and it dosen't even look bad.

+1

...I just do not get how much this bothers people...
it may not look bad, but it looks "wrong". if, like me, you've spent years looking at jazzmasters and jaguars, it just looks weird with the trem moved.

...had my first Jag (a 64 custom colored example) in 1989... Have had many Jags, Jazzmasters, and Bass VIs between then and now. Looked at them a lot...

The guitar you want is offered as an AVRI for less money. For the price of this you could get a refinished vintage one instead. Why does just the existence of this one detail make so many people so angry. It's not what you want, so don't buy it... Why so many manifestos about such an small detail? This site is full of jazzblasters, and other modded guitars that arguably don't look "right"... I personally think the adjusts-o-matic bridge is a bigger piece of blasphemy, but people don't complain a third as much about that as they do about the moved trem on this...

And... I know you can set them up well stock... But you have to admit, the stock version is more than a bit idiosyncratic to get to play well than most popular electric guitars.... The mechanism was designed in an era where people routinely used 12's... Can't really blame them for trying to make it a bit more friendly to more people. It may not be your cup of tea, but it's an understandable variation. why does it offend?

No offence... I just am puzzled.

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Re: 50th Anniversary Jaguar Has Arrived!

Post by aai » Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:13 pm

I agree with all the people complaining about the moved trem; it'd be better just to include a buzz stop with the case candy imo. Unfortunately, I've nver played a guitar with a buzz stop, so I can't really say this with too much credibility.

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Re: 50th Anniversary Jaguar Has Arrived!

Post by dnv » Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:22 pm

FIREBOT wrote:...had my first Jag (a 64 custom colored example) in 1989... Have had many Jags, Jazzmasters, and Bass VIs between then and now. Looked at them a lot...

The guitar you want is offered as an AVRI for less money. For the price of this you could get a refinished vintage one instead. Why does just the existence of this one detail make so many people so angry. It's not what you want, so don't buy it... Why so many manifestos about such an small detail? This site is full of jazzblasters, and other modded guitars that arguably don't look "right"... I personally think the adjusts-o-matic bridge is a bigger piece of blasphemy, but people don't complain a third as much about that as they do about the moved trem on this...

And... I know you can set them up well stock... But you have to admit, the stock version is more than a bit idiosyncratic to get to play well than most popular electric guitars.... The mechanism was designed in an era where people routinely used 12's... Can't really blame them for trying to make it a bit more friendly to more people. It may not be your cup of tea, but it's an understandable variation. why does it offend?

No offence... I just am puzzled.
none taken. :) i'll try to explain my point of view better... it's not about what i want, because i'm quite happy with my guitars and i'm not looking to buy any more at the moment, and if other people want CPs and blacktops, that's fine with me (although if at some point i want a new fender, i would be happy if they still made some guitars i would want to buy). it's more of a matter of principle. i get annoyed when people make changes for no reason. yes, it increases the break angle, but that's not really necessary with a mustang bridge. i have a warmoth modified mustang bridge on my jazzmaster and at one point i also had a buzzstop on it, but i found out that the mustang saddles were enough. why didn't they just change the saddles? then, if people would rather have the original JM saddles, it's easy to change them. moving the trem to the original position, now that's a different story...

and yes, i changed the saddles because i had problems with strings slipping. so it's not because i want the guitar to remain completely unchanged and i think there shouldn't be any changes at all. i know people use these guitars a lot differently than how they were intended to be used. but it's nowhere near as visually apparent as if the trem had been moved, and i can always change the saddles back if i want to. making their guitars a bit more friendly to more people is perfectly fine, but it doesn't hurt to think about the people who already like them (btw, i'm not accusing them of "selling out" or anything. i realise they're a company that needs to make money).

on the subject of jazzblasters and other guitars that don't look right (that includes my JM)... they were modded by their owners, because they felt like modding them and wanted to have a more personalised instrument. when fender make changes like moving the trem, i would imagine there was a bit more behind it. and i just can't seem to get my head around why they didn't just change the bridge and not the trem placement instead of changing both. they could have had form AND function, but they just went for function.

basically, i just don't like not being able to make sense of fender's decision. and i do care a lot about aesthetics... :blush:

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Re: 50th Anniversary Jaguar Has Arrived!

Post by Grey » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:00 pm

aai wrote:I agree with all the people complaining about the moved trem; it'd be better just to include a buzz stop with the case candy imo.
Why is having to include extra hardware to fix an inherent flaw in the design a better option?

They are not claiming the guitar is vintage spec, it's a celebration of the 50th Anniversary, not a re-issue.

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Re: 50th Anniversary Jaguar Has Arrived!

Post by The Dead Ranch Hands » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:51 pm

Grey.exe wrote:
aai wrote:I agree with all the people complaining about the moved trem; it'd be better just to include a buzz stop with the case candy imo.
Why is having to include extra hardware to fix an inherent flaw in the design a better option?

They are not claiming the guitar is vintage spec, it's a celebration of the 50th Anniversary, not a re-issue.
It's not an inherent flaw. Part of the Jaguar sound is the long shallow length of strings behind the bridge. It works just fine, unless you're intent on using tiny girl strings. ;)

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Re: 50th Anniversary Jaguar Has Arrived!

Post by FIREBOT » Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:05 pm

The Dead Ranch Hands wrote:
Grey.exe wrote:
aai wrote:I agree with all the people complaining about the moved trem; it'd be better just to include a buzz stop with the case candy imo.
Why is having to include extra hardware to fix an inherent flaw in the design a better option?

They are not claiming the guitar is vintage spec, it's a celebration of the 50th Anniversary, not a re-issue.
It's not an inherent flaw. Part of the Jaguar sound is the long shallow length of strings behind the bridge. It works just fine, unless you're intent on using tiny girl strings.
I agree that it is not a "flaw", but it is a situation created by decades of changing tastes in strings, and many of the people complaining about this particular solution are gerry-rig some sort of other non-stock solution. I love the design. The Jazzmaster I keep 12s on works great stock. The Jazzmaster I keep 10s on has a Mastery.

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Re: 50th Anniversary Jaguar Has Arrived!

Post by preservation » Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:22 pm

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