AVRI trem, occasional pop/snap and strings go out of tune

[alexpigment]

I have a parts JM with an AVRI trem and Staytrem collet/arm, and after recently putting some TLC into this guitar to get it to play as well as my others, I've noticed a strange issue. With heavy trem use, there's an occasional "pop" or "snap" that I hear from the trem cavity, and then the strings are all out of tune. I know that there's the thing about filing down the knife edge on import trems, but I've never had to do this on an AVRI. Does this ring a bell to anyone else?

For what it's worth, the lock is off, and it's set up so that the lock doesn't cause a change in tuning.

[crazyzeke]

This is probably dumb, useless advice but it might help so I'll try anyway.

My Jag used to make a noise similar to that, more of a creaking really and it would send everything out of tune, the really bad kind where none of the strings were relative to each other. It was around this time I got into the habit of, every two or three sets of strings, completely removing the old set, taking off the vibrato plate and spraying some lubricant on the spring. This made the vibrato action better too, like a bonus, and it's basically never done anything like that since. If it goes out of tune it's by a very small amount, totally consistent with most other floating vibrato guitars I've owned that are non-locking (which is all of them - I won't own a Floyd Rose system because I'll just do dive bombs all the time, I know what I'm like).

[alexpigment]

I had actually just lubricated the spring the other day, which was part of the whole "whipping this guitar into shape" process. In practice, there's no real creaking or anything weird about the operation of the trem. But there's some scenario where it can make a weird sound (something slips), and then it detunes. There's a chance it's still something with the spring, but I just don't know how to diagnose it since you can't watch the trem mechanism while it's in use.

This does give me another thought though. The bottom of the trem cavity is painted and has a sort of rocky texture. In other words, the body wasn't flat sanded in that cavity before it was sprayed at the factory, so the little wood fibers sticking up have hardened poly on them. If the lubricant got on the trem cup at the bottom, maybe it's sort of slipping on this rocky texture on the body.

[crazyzeke]

I had actually just lubricated the spring the other day, which was part of the whole "whipping this guitar into shape" process. In practice, there's no real creaking or anything weird about the operation of the trem. But there's some scenario where it can make a weird sound (something slips), and then it detunes. There's a chance it's still something with the spring, but I just don't know how to diagnose it since you can't watch the trem mechanism while it's in use.

This does give me another thought though. The bottom of the trem cavity is painted and has a sort of rocky texture. In other words, the body wasn't flat sanded in that cavity before it was sprayed at the factory, so the little wood fibers sticking up have hardened poly on them. If the lubricant got on the trem cup at the bottom, maybe it's sort of slipping on this rocky texture on the body.

Oh that's a point - it might be worth adjusting the tension of the spring so it seats more comfortably in the route. I long ago gave up on having the string snap button work properly (I used to set my Jags up so that works, i.e. when strings are at tension sliding the button towards the bridge with the arm slightly down retains basically the same pitch) but overall tuning stability with the arm for even light arm dips was bad. Sacrificing that and having a slightly tighter spring made it better all round, and when it snaps a string I tend to replace it right away anyhow so it's not a particularly useful feature to have.

[alexpigment]

Oh that's a point - it might be worth adjusting the tension of the spring so it seats more comfortably in the route. I long ago gave up on having the string snap button work properly (I used to set my Jags up so that works, i.e. when strings are at tension sliding the button towards the bridge with the arm slightly down retains basically the same pitch) but overall tuning stability with the arm for even light arm dips was bad. Sacrificing that and having a slightly tighter spring made it better all round, and when it snaps a string I tend to replace it right away anyhow so it's not a particularly useful feature to have.

For me it's a got a few other functions that I find more important. If I need to do any temporary extensive tuning change (i.e. DADGAD), I put the lock on, and this prevents the guitar from fighting against me while detuning the strings. With the lock off, tuning strings down will cause the others to go sharp, and basically you just have to keep tuning each one until the tension balances overall (like a floating strat). Of course, you lose the floating trem while in that tuning, but I have guitars that are set up for different tunings if it's something I use often.

The lock also helps when I'm changing strings or simply taking them off temporarily to do any work/mods (which is surprisingly common for me). Turn the lock on, take the strings off, [do work], then put the strings on and tune up, then unlock. Saves a ton of time. I haven't been in a situation where I'm playing live and broke a string on a JM, but I suppose it would come in handy to finish a song. As for general tuning instability you mentioned, I really can't say I have any with the AVRI trem; the spring is squishy enough but returns to pitch as expected. At any rate, it's settled into shape since I made this post (i.e. I think whatever shifted to make the loud pop isn't going to move until I change the strings), but I will probably go in with some sandpaper in a few days and try to address the non-smooth texture at the bottom of the cavity.

[crazyzeke]

For me it's a got a few other functions that I find more important. If I need to do any temporary extensive tuning change (i.e. DADGAD), I put the lock on, and this prevents the guitar from fighting against me while detuning the strings. With the lock off, tuning strings down will cause the others to go sharp, and basically you just have to keep tuning each one until the tension balances overall (like a floating strat). Of course, you lose the floating trem while in that tuning, but I have guitars that are set up for different tunings if it's something I use often.

I literally never thought of that but it actually makes a lot of sense - considering I've basically repurposed the Jag as a rock instrument you'd think I'd have come up with other unconventional uses for the feature smart suggestion! How did you figure that out?

Since you mentioned Strat vibrato, can we talk about those for a minute? I have a two-point pivot style one on the Meteora. First time I've had a Strat style for years, let alone a decent one that actually holds pitch well. I've noticed though - and it is tuning related, bear with me - that because I'm going between standard and half step down (my originals band which I front including vocals is standard, my wedding covers band is half step - singers eh?) it takes longer for the Meteora to hold the new tuning than the Jag. This absolutely stunned me when I first figured it out, and if I'm honest made me love the Jag more.

I haven't been in a situation where I'm playing live and broke a string on a JM, but I suppose it would come in handy to finish a song.

Yeah it doesn't happen often - for whatever physics-based reason short scales don't snap strings as often as full scales even though it has higher gauge strings to compensate (11s on Jag, 10s on Meteora, I think my acoustic although it's short scale has 12s), but when a string goes the guitar is toast for the rest of the song. The trick is swapping guitars mid-song while also doing backing vocals if it's the wedding band - dipping out of the mic range, swapping the wireless kit, then putting one down and picking the other up, all while doing bits of BVs I'm sure it looks hilarious to the audience

As for general tuning instability you mentioned, I really can't say I have any with the AVRI trem; the spring is squishy enough but returns to pitch as expected. At any rate, it's settled into shape since I made this post (i.e. I think whatever shifted to make the loud pop isn't going to move until I change the strings), but I will probably go in with some sandpaper in a few days and try to address the non-smooth texture at the bottom of the cavity.

Yeah it's a build quality thing - AVRI has better quality metal parts and wiring than CIJ, I remember that from trying one for like an hour. I didn't like the tone and neck but the vibrato was like butter. I've been meaning to upgrade to a Mastery vibrato for years - maybe rather than buying more pedals, when I have more gig money to spare I should invest.

[alexpigment]

Since you mentioned Strat vibrato, can we talk about those for a minute? I have a two-point pivot style one on the Meteora. First time I've had a Strat style for years, let alone a decent one that actually holds pitch well. I've noticed though - and it is tuning related, bear with me - that because I'm going between standard and half step down (my originals band which I front including vocals is standard, my wedding covers band is half step - singers eh?) it takes longer for the Meteora to hold the new tuning than the Jag. This absolutely stunned me when I first figured it out, and if I'm honest made me love the Jag more.

I would *guess* that this has to do with the same reason that the Strat trem has no subtlety. The bridge itself is the pivot point, so any small movements of the bar equate to a big change in pitch. The Jazzmaster's bridge is far decoupled from the trem unit, and obviously the design of the trem itself is inherently different. I would think this has more to do with why tuning equilibrium is harder to achieve with a Strat bridge, though that's just my hunch.

Strat trems, to me, are just enigmatic voodoo. It's way harder to get one set up that stays stable tuning-wise during usage. Not to mention, there are 3 different factors that you have to play with - the number (and type) of springs, the screws at the claw, the height of the bridge. It's just not a trem that the average joe can dial in without some expert knowledge.

If you find yourself going between tunings on your strat a lot in live situations, it may be worth considering decking it (i.e. bridge flat against the body) so that you get downward motion with the arm, but no upward motion. It would be the same as turning a lock on with a Jag/JM trem. It's not ideal, but it depends on how often you use your bar and if down-only is antithetical to your playing style.

[crazyzeke]

I would *guess* that this has to do with the same reason that the Strat trem has no subtlety. The bridge itself is the pivot point, so any small movements of the bar equate to a big change in pitch. The Jazzmaster's bridge is far decoupled from the trem unit, and obviously the design of the trem itself is inherently different. I would think this has more to do with why tuning equilibrium is harder to achieve with a Strat bridge, though that's just my hunch.

I agree on vibrato feel - JM/Jag and to a lesser extent Mustang have to me more of a Bigsby style but with a lighter touch required to get the subtle modulational wobbles. which I prefer. Strat has more range though, which can be nice.

Strat trems, to me, are just enigmatic voodoo. It's way harder to get one set up that stays stable tuning-wise during usage. Not to mention, there are 3 different factors that you have to play with - the number (and type) of springs, the screws at the claw, the height of the bridge. It's just not a trem that the average joe can dial in without some expert knowledge.

Yeah I just feel lucky that my Meteora seems to balance really well with 10s then - when it's in tune it tends to stay there, and as long as you aren't dive-bombing the vibrato every minute (which let's be honest, isn't very musical anyway) it won't drift. It's a nice example of the two-point pivot Strat style.



Still wish they'd put the jack on the top plate though - it's on the edge of the body like a Les Paul, and it drive me mad at home (for sitting down practice) and at rehearsals/gigs (because the wireless transmitter doesn't stay put even when taped, sometimes, and as I need to change guitar semi-often... ugh).

If you find yourself going between tunings on your strat a lot in live situations, it may be worth considering decking it (i.e. bridge flat against the body) so that you get downward motion with the arm, but no upward motion. It would be the same as turning a lock on with a Jag/JM trem. It's not ideal, but it depends on how often you use your bar and if down-only is antithetical to your playing style.

Yeah I don't really go up with the arm on any floating vibrato guitar - good way to snap strings and I'm very economical with them, I can get literal months out of a set on each guitar unless I'm doing more than a few gigs per month (rare at the moment). I'd be tempted to do that as both Jag and Meteora go between standard and half step down fairly often.

Good advice and insight, thank you

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Any luck with your AVRI trem there, is it staying in tune or still losing it?

[thisisnickpaige]

Have you checked if the strings are rubbing on the collet? Symptoms sound similar. My high e string would rub and creak on the collet as you used it. And with heavy use the string gets caught on top of the collet and snaps as you pull it up. I sanded down my collet slightly, and held the trem to angle while retightening it.

Edit: Admittedly I have not ready every part of this discussion, so you may have checked this, but I’ve known it to be a problem of a few of my JMs.

[alexpigment]

Any luck with your AVRI trem there, is it staying in tune or still losing it?

It's still staying in tune. I suspect whatever shifted is probably going to stay shifted until I take the strings off. My only guess at this point is that the cup on the bottom of the spring slid on the bottom of the cavity due to the non-smooth surface. It could also be something about the knife edge on the pivot point, but I have no way to confirm that, and I don't really have the tools to file the metal in a graceful way.

[alexpigment]

Have you checked if the strings are rubbing on the collet? Symptoms sound similar. My high e string would rub and creak on the collet as you used it. And with heavy use the string gets caught on top of the collet and snaps as you pull it up. I sanded down my collet slightly, and held the trem to angle while retightening it.

Although I was fairly certain this wasn't the case, I wanted to double check when I got home to be absolutely certain. I can confirm that there's more than enough clearance between the strings and the collet. I suspect that the issue you described is specific to a trem spacing and/or bridge spacing that I don't have. Mine's a 55mm trem (AVRI) and 52mm bridge (Squier 40th mustang style).

[interceptör]

Have you checked that the spring tension screw isn't slipping? I once had a a Jaguar that'd suddenly go absurdly out of tune (without a ping, though) and a bit of plumber's tape (because I didn't have Loctite at hand) around the threads solved the problem permanently.

[alexpigment]

Have you checked that the spring tension screw isn't slipping? I once had a a Jaguar that'd suddenly go absurdly out of tune (without a ping, though) and a bit of plumber's tape (because I didn't have Loctite at hand) around the threads solved the problem permanently.

Interesting theory! Was yours slipping where it meets the metal plate, or where it meets the "foot"? At any rate, this might actually make sense with what's happening. Next time it occurs, I'll check to see if the lock behavior changes (i.e. can't easily turn on the lock, still able to pull arm upward when locked, etc).

[interceptör]

Interesting theory! Was yours slipping where it meets the metal plate, or where it meets the "foot"? At any rate, this might actually make sense with what's happening. Next time it occurs, I'll check to see if the lock behavior changes (i.e. can't easily turn on the lock, still able to pull arm upward when locked, etc).

I meant the "bottom" end of the screw where (if memory serves) they've already added some red stuff at the factory to prevent it from slipping.

[B.T.]

Don’t block the bridge from rocking.