JM long wiring, how not to noise?

For help with setups and other technical issues.
Post Reply
User avatar
monkfish
PAT PEND
PAT PEND
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:10 am
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

JM long wiring, how not to noise?

Post by monkfish » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:11 pm

I am adding to a rhythm circuit to a Jazzmaster that was put together without one (going to wire it so it works with bridge pickup too). I have shielded the cavity and pickguard with conductive copper tape and I am planning to twist the long wire runs. Any other tips to help prevent/reject noise? Thankee sai.

User avatar
kalipigeon
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 1421
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:31 pm
Location: Little Rock, AR, USA, Earth
Contact:

Re: JM long wiring, how not to noise?

Post by kalipigeon » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:40 pm

Not sure if you've solved this by now, but I'd recommend making sure your grounding is as good as you can get it. I like this guide, as it covers the shielding/grounding combo well.

http://www.adamiecho.com/BrooklynGuitar ... yGardenWay

User avatar
timtam
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 2729
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:42 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: JM long wiring, how not to noise?

Post by timtam » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:56 am

Sorry but this dude has no idea what an electrical , hum-producing ground loop is. Ground is ground inside a guitar. Amps and pedals - that's another story.

Twisting long wire runs is good. Make sure your copper shielding tape is actually double sided (ie conductive adhesive) so that your overlapping tape has actually created a continuous noise-protective Faraday cage instead of multiple disconnected pieces of wasted tape. If there are unavoidable shielding gaps between cavities at least run a ground wire across the gap from cavity-to-cavity shielding so that each cavity's shielding is actually grounded. Your multimeter should show zero resistance from the shielding at the bottom of the main cavity to that at the top of the rhythm circuit cavity. Make sure your pickguard shielding is grounded, eg by contact with the (grounded) rim of the output jack. Protect all internal connections from shorting out to the shielding.
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

User avatar
oid
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 834
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:19 pm

Re: JM long wiring, how not to noise?

Post by oid » Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:14 am

Follow timtam's advice, concise and correct,
Logic gates based on billiard-ball computer designs have also been made to operate using live soldier crabs of the species Mictyris guinotae in place of the billiard balls.

User avatar
kalipigeon
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 1421
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:31 pm
Location: Little Rock, AR, USA, Earth
Contact:

Re: JM long wiring, how not to noise?

Post by kalipigeon » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:04 pm

Fair enough, I agree there is a bit of "mojo" factor in his presentation. That said, what he suggests is miles better than most production guitars leaving factories today (even if a bit of overkill). I have had Mexican and Japanese (new) Fenders with no ground at all in the circuit due to a missing connection between the sleeve and the rest of the guitar and rarely is shielding paint thick enough or contiguous in its application.

The big issues are as enclosed of a shielding (Faraday) cage as you can make, making sure your components are properly grounded, and making sure your bridge (i.e. strings) are also connected to the main ground to your output jack. That will get you 95% of the way there. The rest, unfortunately, tends to be in the combination of the wiring of the room, your amp, and other sources of electrical interference like computers and neon signs on the same circuit with you.

User avatar
HNB
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 13513
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 7:55 am
Location: Puyallup, Washington
Contact:

Re: JM long wiring, how not to noise?

Post by HNB » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:38 am

The unfortunate thing about Jazzmasters (but people like them anyways) is the large wide pickups are great for picking up noise. They are like noise satellite dishes. All the shielding in the body is good, but the pickups still largely sit above the pickguard so there will still be noise.

Novak makes noiseless Jazzmaster pickups that still look like a Jazzmaster pickup if you want the Jazzy sound without the hum. There are also humbucker versions of Jazzy pickups if you want higher output. :)
Christopher
Lilith Guitars

User avatar
HNB
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 13513
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 7:55 am
Location: Puyallup, Washington
Contact:

Re: JM long wiring, how not to noise?

Post by HNB » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:32 am

I am surprised with technology nowadays that there aren't metal Jazzmaster pickup covers that you can ground to reduce noise and add pickup shielding. :) (Purists would probably complain that the noise is part of a Jazzmaster.... LOL)
Christopher
Lilith Guitars

User avatar
oid
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 834
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:19 pm

Re: JM long wiring, how not to noise?

Post by oid » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:54 pm

HNB wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:32 am
(Purists would probably complain that the noise is part of a Jazzmaster.... LOL)
[/quote

Or someone versed in the physics of sound, noise has a large role in tone, especially distorted tone, this is a big part of the the sound of folks like Neil Young and Jack White vs that of Yngwie Malmsteen and Tosin Abasi, Neil and Jack like to have some noise in their signal chain to get those dirty dirty distortions. It can be a boon to those who want dirt, a hindrance to those who want clean, it all depends on the style. You can most clearly hear the effects of noise on distortion when you have a good amount of distortion but you can still play very lightly and get somewhat clean sounds, pick a note and let it trail off, as the note decays and its level reaches that of the noise you will often get a weird fizzle, this is the noise modulating the guitars output, generally the guitar signal dominates so we can not hear this effect so directly but its effect plays a prominent role even when the guitar dominates the noise.

As for metal covers, they can help, but they also affect the inductance of the coil and therefore the frequency response, this may or may not have an audible effect on sound, depends on many things and ones style. If all it took to quiet a single coil was a metal cover we would be seeing far more metal covered single coils on the market as well as after market metal covers, but there are no free lunches here and the plastic cover reigns supreme.

Metal pickup covers will not help in stopping noise from long wire runs though, still need to twist the leads or used shielded cable for any runs longer than and inch or two.
Logic gates based on billiard-ball computer designs have also been made to operate using live soldier crabs of the species Mictyris guinotae in place of the billiard balls.

User avatar
monkfish
PAT PEND
PAT PEND
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:10 am
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Re: JM long wiring, how not to noise?

Post by monkfish » Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:01 pm

The cavity shielding is overlapped with beads of solder between each layer,the copper foil connects to the shielding on the back of the pickguard and is connected to ground. I gigged the JM for the first time last month and had zero issues with unwanted noise, so far so good. Just the right amount of wanted noise.. Now I just need to add in the rhythm circuit, hopefully the existing shielding plus twisting the cable run and good solder connections will mean no extra noise.

User avatar
Embenny
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 10363
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 5:07 am

Re: JM long wiring, how not to noise?

Post by Embenny » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:53 pm

HNB wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:32 am
I am surprised with technology nowadays that there aren't metal Jazzmaster pickup covers that you can ground to reduce noise and add pickup shielding. :) (Purists would probably complain that the noise is part of a Jazzmaster.... LOL)
Pete Biltoft of Vintage Vibe pickups builds copper shielding into his single coil pickups. I have a set of his Jazzmaster pickups, and they do have a bit less noise than typical JM singlecoils. I can't speak to why people haven't shielded pickup covers themselves - and actually, now that I think about it, if you painted the inside of the covers with shielding paint, you could probably find a way to connect that to ground to see if it does anything tangible.
The artist formerly known as mbene085.

User avatar
timtam
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 2729
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:42 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: JM long wiring, how not to noise?

Post by timtam » Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:04 pm

The new trick with shielding single coils is apparently to leave a gap in the copper shielding around the coil ....
https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/ ... il-pickups
That supposedly avoids the high frequency loss that some people report with continuous shielding.
Haven't tried either way myself.
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

User avatar
oid
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 834
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:19 pm

Re: JM long wiring, how not to noise?

Post by oid » Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:31 pm

timtam wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:04 pm
The new trick with shielding single coils is apparently to leave a gap in the copper shielding around the coil ....
https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/ ... il-pickups
That supposedly avoids the high frequency loss that some people report with continuous shielding.
Haven't tried either way myself.
The shielding around the pickup acts like a good number of turns on the coil and increases the inductance of the pickup which drops the cutoff frequency of the RLC filter created by the controls and pickup. The effects of this are probably inconsequential in a pickups like the Jazzmaster's, few complain about a lack in treble response here. Could be useful for those who have switched to 500 or 250k pots and would like to recoup a tad more treble. The shielding below tcanhe pickup can also be removed to further this.

There will be little consequence on noise here since the pickup itself is unshileded, likely would notice a decrease in the quiet zone in respect to the guitars physical relationship to the amp. Would be worth while to replace that long wire run up to the rhythm controls with shielded wire since this would expose them. Those run through the pickup cavity don't they? I just can not quite picture what it looks like under the pickguard right now for some reason, guess it is about time to open up mine and refresh my memory. Good thing I have a new pickup arriving tomorrow for it.
Logic gates based on billiard-ball computer designs have also been made to operate using live soldier crabs of the species Mictyris guinotae in place of the billiard balls.

Post Reply