Mustang AP - vibrato not tight enough at max tension?

[TheScottMaple]

Note: this is *not* another 'how do I stop the guitar going it of tune when I use the vibrato' question, but due to similarity in wording when I search the issue those types of post are all I find.

I'm new to the group but have been getting great advice from the site for setting up the vibrato and bridge on my new (to me) Mustang American Performer.

One thing I can't figure out (and the answer may be that 'it is what it is') is how to stop the following issue I'm experiencing...

When I do single or double-string bends the other strings are pulled *very* out of tune for the duration of the bend.

E.g. a bend on the G string pulls the low E down by at least fifty percent. It's a problem if I need that string to ring.

My vibrato springs and posts are set to the tightest position.

I appreciate that there's always 'cause and effect' with a vibrato system, but this *extreme* compared to my other guitars with vibratos.

I've set the guitar up with bullet-tens, perhaps I should try nines as they'll have less power to pull against the springs?

That's all I can think to try but worried they may be too 'rubber bandy' feeling due to the shorter scale length.

Any thoughts / experience on this from Mustang users out there?

Thanks

[crazyzeke]

Hmmm. I haven't had a Mustang for a few years now (I've had about 3 or 4, the last was a purple Mustang 90 but I've had ones with the standard style vibrato as well) but I don't recall the vibrato being like the Jag/JM ones where bending one string barely affects the pitch of the others, I remember it more as closer to a Strat style where the rest of them would pitch down noticeably even on full tone (two semitone) bends, something about Strat vibratos I've never liked and sadly affects my Meteora because it has a two-point Strat-style pivot thing going on.

Honestly I forgot how bad a lot of other vibratos are in sending the other 5 strings out of tune when you bend one, it's something I've always hated about non-locking floating vibratos. Therefore, along with the unique tone and behind the bridge strings, features that make the JM/Jag system preferable, something I've always loved about them is that they don't do that. Basically Leo got the vibrato system so right in terms of response and tuning stability, it's easier to overlook it's lack of dive range as it's so expressive and pretty for shimmers and wobbles, and forgive the damn stock bridge a bit too plus to be honest it just feels really nice to use. Strat style gives you more range at the expense of tuning stability of the other strings when bending one or two strings, you kind of just have to deal with it and adapt your playing technique to suit I suppose.

E.g. a bend on the G string pulls the low E down by at least fifty percent. It's a problem if I need that string to ring.

"Fifty percent" is a rather arbitrary number when you're talking about string tuning... "fifty cents" other than being the name of an overrated rapper and a coin in a lot of countries which use dollar currently would be quarter of a tone but I don't think you meant that? Do you mean like, you bend a string and it goes from E in concert pitch down to drop D or something?

[TheScottMaple]

Thanks for the input.
Yes it goes down at least a half tone when I do a full tone bend.

I have noticed the issue on Strats but could live with it as (on the one I have) it's far less pronounced.

As you suggest and as per my original post it might just be an "it is what it is, live with it" situation.

From your post this doesn't happen with Jaguar bridges no? I'm a warbler, not a dive bomber, so maybe a jaguar is more my style.

[crazyzeke]

From your post this doesn't happen with Jaguar bridges no? I'm a warbler, not a dive bomber, so maybe a jaguar is more my style.

Well I wouldn't say it 100% doesn't happen but it's probably so far off in the background it's basically non-existent - I have perfect pitch so if the strings were drifting around more than a few cents I'd hear it, I'm sure. This is nice for me because I do a lot of bends with open strings ringing and in fact there's a riff-driven song I wrote recently where it's doing that exact thing, kinda Pumpkins style.

The thing the Mustang and Jaguar have most in common is the necks - they're about the same and if you like short scale (I do) moving between them is really easy. The shared JM/Jag vibrato plate is where the unique tone comes from, and it survives even if/when you mod the guitar, plus it's more similar going from a Mustang to a JM/Jag than from Mustang to Strat in terms of vibrato feel. Those long arms on JM/Jag lend themselves so well to dip strumming that it becomes a reflex after a while - I have to tell myself not to do it in every song

Don't get me wrong, I love Mustangs and have had several but they always end up getting neglected. The Jazzmaster has had more of a popularity boost over the years than the Jag, but the latter suits my technique a lot better because I can do the weird stretchy jazz extension chords I like pretty much anywhere on the neck.

If you do decide to get a Jag - obviously I'm super-biased because my CIJ Jag has been my main for nearly 2 decades now so I'd encourage anyone to do it, with caveats - immediately budget to change the stock bridge as part of the package (Staytrem and Mastery are popular for a reason), and possibly the pickups too depending on which model you're looking at.

[TheScottMaple]

Cheers for the info, I'll see how I get on with the Mustang but trading out for a Jaguar is always an option.

I am a tamperer, I've changed the pickups or more (including bridges) on almost every guitar I've ever owned.

I didn't like the Yosemite pickups that were in the Mustang, have switched out to a Quarter Pounder in the bridge and FiveTwo in the neck. Sacrilege!

I'll keep the Yosemites so that I can always put them back in if I decide to trade it on.

[crazyzeke]

Cheers for the info, I'll see how I get on with the Mustang but trading out for a Jaguar is always an option.

I didn't like the Yosemite pickups that were in the Mustang, have switched out to a Quarter Pounder in the bridge and FiveTwo in the neck. Sacrilege!

You're welcome dude, I don't know as much as some here (especially the builders) but I'll always pass on things that might be useful.

Oh I can't talk when it comes to sticking hot Duncan pickups in offsets - I had the SJAG-3 QP set in my Jag and only swapped the bridge for a Hot Rail SHR-1b because I was getting single coil hum at certain venues which made it impossible to use without enabling both pickups, not ideal in a punk band where basically every song runs from the bridge pickup! Hotter pickups rein in the offset craziness with lots of attack/little sustain when stock to be a little more consistent and versatile.

[TheScottMaple]

Nice.
I wasn’t sure about going for a hotrails style because although there are the benefits of noise reduction, greater sustain and of course RAWK they’re taller than standard pickups and the Mustangs have thinner bodies and (correct me if I’m wrong) or the deepest of pickup routes.

I’ve found that hot pickups too close to the strings can sound too choked for my tastes.

Difficult to know without trying though.

[crazyzeke]

Nice.
I wasn’t sure about going for a hotrails style because although there are the benefits of noise reduction, greater sustain and of course RAWK they’re taller than standard pickups and the Mustangs have thinner bodies and (correct me if I’m wrong) or the deepest of pickup routes.

I’ve found that hot pickups too close to the strings can sound too choked for my tastes.

Difficult to know without trying though.

Well I remember I watched this video for a comparison - not that I was going for Nirvana tone at all, just no-one had really done something like that in a Jag. As someone who's owned several Mustangs and knows roughly how they tend to sound, I used that as a reference point. Neither the JB or the JB Jr. in the video seemed to have the clarity in the mids that I wanted, so the Hot Rails, which I never would have considered otherwise, won pretty easily.

Noise reduction, greater sustain (partly due to pickup compression - these things are 16.6K DC which ranks them as hot to super hot depending on who you ask) and better performance when driven, especially higher gain as you might want for hard rock, grunge and metal.

I don't think pickup height would be a problem because Jag uses pickups in body like a Mustang rather than pickups on guard like a Strat and I seem to remember shimming the pickup a bit on top of the rubber/foam in the route so it sat a little higher. They're really not that much taller than the stock single coils that were in there, and they're basically a sealed unit so pretty easy to work with. Just have to mess around a bit running the wire through the pickup route because obviously they were designed for Strats so it can be a tight fit, but as it's worked flawlessly for 5 years with the wire tucked and running parallel to the pickup I'm not worried. I guess those pickup claws were good for something - they mean the pickup route has to be bigger, so when you remove them you get that space back for other things!

With hotter pickups, yes the cleans will suffer a little because hotter pickups tend to emphasise the midrange above all else (also but not always the bass response), so brightness takes a hit. An amp with a good presence/treble controls which have a wide sweep can sort this out though, to an extent, but really it has to be the sort of guitar you mostly want to play with gain, even if it's just bluesy breakup.






Jag here with my friend's Tele and my own Meteora, which is my "low gain pickup" guitar for slightly better cleans, both humbucking and coil split (first guitar I've come across where the coil tap sounds amazing, if you don't mind boosting the output a little with a clean boost pedal that is).