Filed Pivot = Trem Ruined (No Longer... )

[Danley]

If it wasn't already a doa trem to begin with, anyway I know that there have been people here who have filed the pivot/knife edge on a Jaguar/Jazzmaster trem; how did you do it without making things even worse and introducing loads of instability and incessant clicking?

So I've been wrestling with this VM Jazzmaster for the last few weeks, trying to get the trem to stay in tune... Issue being that it would stay sharp after bends. I isolated the issue to the fact that the trem was staying up-bent, and verified that my functional trems (another MIJ and an AV) did not exhibit this issue on the same guitar.

...I've previously filed trem pivots and screwed up trems by doing it, but it seemed like a few here had tried it with success, so I figured that if I did a very subtle de-burring, then it would have minimal affect anyway; I was wrong. I didnt even file enough to measurably or visibly alter the pivot, bu't trem is now extremely unstable. Should have just gone with an AV instead of wasting $45 on a MIJ trem that didn't work properly to begin with, and that is now unusable. But for those of you who have done this and had it work... What's your secret?

[fuzzking]

Sorry to hear... I filed away the burrs on a few import and AVRI trems over the years, and just a few weeks ago on an older JM copy, always to positive effect. If you haven't hacked away at it like a madman, I really can't imagine what could possibly have gone wrong. I'd take an AVRI/vintage trem over an import one any time, but I fail to see how a little de-burr could have a negative effect on tuning stability.

[jorri]

I wonder if any replacement parts could help. USA individual bits of the tremolo are for sale, but the only bit i've never seen the 'knife edge' part. Maybe replacing the plate which the strings go through could help- IF it is a direct fit.

It may not have been the knife edge anyway. Maybe reassembly has just showed up a random error- are you setting it to the lock position with the same tension?
I think other parts could be: Different spring/string tension or friction. The plate that the knife edge touches as above- an old one i have has grooves in it, doesn't seem too bad but if the pivot was in these imperfections it might cause problems. The trem cavity is too tight so it actually gets stuck on the wood- warmoth do this and i had to file away some of the wood but i think imperfections can lead to this being a problem. The ground wire also could interfere in theory (is that how VMs are grounded?).

I do have an old MIJ and it does this a little, i simply ignore it and remember to push down before tuning especially but its not by a huge amount could have been i didn't take away enough of the route but it doesn't show unless i really pull up the trem and look at a tuner so i don't obsess over it.. I did take fine sandpaper to the kinfe edge, and the curve its resting on, also applied WD40 carefully (don't want to get it on the collet which can loosen), i don't think any of this really did anything but i did it as matter of course rather than to solve a problem.

[mackerelmint]

The best way to do it is probably to use a belt sander with a metal grinding belt on there, so you can be sure it's flush and even.

Some people swear by doing the opposite and squaring that edge even more than it already comes, the argument being that the flat edge gives it something stable to zero on.

Of course, the other variable in that function is the bit that the blade rests against. Presumably a poorly made one could affect the ability to return to pitch. I have no clue how to sort that out reliably, short of replacing *that* particular piece.

[Danley]

I'm not totally finished grinding away on it... But it's such a pain to pull it off, take off the pivot, string it back up etc. and then find out that whatever alteration I made still hasn't fixed it, which has happened four or five times now.

I should specify that I actually sanded the pivot, though I wrote filed. The first attempt was just a few passes over a flat block across the two square edges, not eliminating the 90 deg. angle, just evening things out... That was enough to seriously mess it. Since then I've tried rounding the edges off more, when I have the spirit again I'll try boxing it ninety deg. again.

Again though, it's likely this was a dud trem anyway One thing I notice, there are actually small "cut" marks in the tailpiece plate where the pivot appears to have scarred it, odd for a brand new (within the last few days) trem. BTW... Pivots and tailpiece plate are not interchangeable from a Squier trem to MIJ. I have my Squier trem back on it for now... Which doesn't crackle or totally lose stability, but does squee and not operate smoothly (never did, that's why I bought the MIJ.)

Uggh.

[novamax]

My VMs have a bit of clacking once in a while but stay tuned. I did sand a bit on the edges but that didn't eve the clacking.

However, some ideas for you:
Did you go finer with the sandpaper, maybe even polish? Taking away material is one thing, but smoothing out imperfections is another...
Did you clean after sanding to remove any particals?
I think the surface the pivot rests on may be at least as important to smooth out.
And I read that some lube this gliding joint, which makes sense (to glide and to prevent further wear.)

I'm afraid what makes the difference is hard to tell via distance diagnosis...

[Danley]

Kept grinding away at it; I'm SO very close. Here's what I've done/learned:

-I'm still alarmed that the stock pivots look so crude, yet can work

-Getting it squared back up increases the stability. Rounding or tapering does not

-Squared the edge up again using sandpaper and a block, then polishing with high grain/wet sandpaper.

-Used wet sandpaper on the scarred pivot seat/tailpiece to smooth out the grooves.

Result? Within a reasonable range, the trem works. On full up-bend, it's stable. On full down-bend at the very bottom it clacks and the bass end pops up a bit visually. The most frustrating thing is how the last few times I've removed and sanded (there have been a few) it's screwed in and worked fine for a few minutes, till it somehow gets seated and the clack returns. So annoying...

I'll keep at it. Takeaway, all MIJ trems for me have been imperfect out of the box for me in some way, though never as bad as this; I've always gotten them to work. But vs. the AVRI, which are in my experience excellent... Not worth the extra hours. I love this guitar, but it was still just a Squier so figured doing without the extra investment wouldn't have sacrificed much.

Again. Uggh.

[909one]

Surprised you are having so much tuning issues. My Jazzmaster has an import trem and it stays in tune better than any guitar I own. I found that as long as the strings aren't binding at the nut or in the bridge its all good.
It works better than any Bigsby I have owned or any strat trem as well. I also wrapped the bridge posts with some sticky backed foil, it doesn't totally limit the range of motion, but it does a little bit, enough to allow it to return pitch on every bend.

[Danley]

One thing I should add about the still in-process shaping; I've found it effective to remove the tailpiece/seat and as I sand minute amounts of the pivot, puzzle it back together to see where it stays in place with the least amount of slip. This has been a slow process, and I've made a few alterations along the path that have made it worse, better, worse, better... It goes on.

I'm tempted to stop right now; despite the minute occasional click on extreme down-bends, the trem at this point stays in tune better than it did when I first slapped it on (which is to say, still not perfect). I've had decent luck with Jaguar/Jazzmaster trems up to this point, and have proselytized them; I have two other guitars right now which stay in tune as well as a Floyd, and I've bought/sold/used about a half dozen more with varying Allparts/AVRI etc. trems which were much the same.

I'm now getting a better understanding of how badly things can go wrong, especially with MIJ trems... I've had issues ranging from this one, which did not initially click but didn't stay in tune, another one which stayed in tune but clicked (the one I mentioned I had previously attempted to file and failed at), string ball-ends contacting back of plate, lock buttons not engaging, etc.

Also, back to the Squier trem; it appears to not only differ in spec from the MIJ trem unit, but the Allparts as well. The cradle/tailpiece is wider and won't fit through an MIJ/Allparts slot, and the spacing on the three bolts differs. This Squier trem is another item of confirmed junk from the start, it causes the tuning to go about a half-step out either way... I might play around with it just to experiment and get experience, once I've either given up on or fixed the MIJ.

[mackerelmint]

FWIW, I replaced the guts in my MIJ trem with squier VM parts. I wanted to keep the lock button, but the innards were shit in that thing. The squier parts were a huge improvement.

[Danley]

Funny, I just edited my above post to add that I tried to do the same while I was working on the pivot in the MIJ, and found that there was limited interchangeability between the MIJ/Squier. Poor QC?

[mackerelmint]

Funny, I just edited my above post to add that I tried to do the same while I was working on the pivot in the MIJ, and found that there was limited interchangeability between the MIJ/Squier. Poor QC?

Maybe to some extent. The fulcrum edge in my MIJ trem wasn't parallel like it was supposed to have been. The screw holes in that plate were drilled incorrectly, so it fit on crooked.

The MIJs have a bit of a taper in the strings behind the bridge, the squiers and AVRIs have none of that. So the MIJ hole doesn't need to be as wide. Just one of those things.

IME, MIJ trems are the least of them, although I've been hearing more complaints about the squier trems of late. I've never had an issue with the ones that came from my JMJM and VM, which are both several years old. Maybe they've started cutting corners?

[fuzzking]

Hmm these trem parts are all punchings made at low cost. I guess they only check the first batch, and if they're alright they're ready for serial production and will never be controlled again at production stage. Eventually the tools will wear out, which will lead to greater tolerances and burrs. I doubt they check parts and assemblies' tolerances for full/flawless functionality. I can only imagine how many of these low cost guitars are being produced (probably ten times as much as all AVRIs ever?), and every penny counts when you want to produce as cheap as possible. In an ideal world, Fender should replace a trem at no cost if it doesn't work as intended, whatever the country of origin.

[novamax]

Don't know, but my 2014 Jag and JM work without further work and stay in tune. Have no comparison to MIA, MIM, and CIJ, though.

[Danley]

Yeah, fuck this stupid thing, it finally works Keep in mind I've been taking it off at least a couple times each day to slowly file it, considering only a few swipes of sandpaper ruined it in the first place...

After trial and error, found that the best way to go about this was to file the edge flat, keep the edges close to razor sharp, and (if I can describe this) get the edge that faces "up" toward the top of the guitar most acute... In other words, don't file it "square," if you're looking at the pivot from the side/droopy piece pointing to the ground, then the "bottom" edge of the pivot should be obtuse/flatter, with the "top" part of the edge sharpest.

It stays in tune now, which is more than it did before, and better than the Squier trem Headache, but the pivot WAS the issue (and likely is on the Squier model too.)

Still... My other MIJ and AVRI trems can handle 9s , and this one won't, even after switching the spring for US So the lock button won't work properly and I can't get a "full float," but at least the stupid thing stays in tune and doesn't click.