Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Talk about modding or building your own guitar from scratch.
Post Reply
User avatar
mgeek
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 1436
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:03 pm

Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by mgeek » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:46 am

Shadoweclipse13 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:19 am
The slider switches shouldn't be an issue. I found that they only need 3/4" (19mm) cavity depth. I wouldn't recommend it, but if you REALLY needed to, you could probably the lugs outward just a little bit, to give you an extra millimeter or two.

For rocker switches, I'd recommend NKK M-series. I have some M-series for a project and they're really nice. You can switch the caps to get different colors too. Here's the PDF data sheet for them.
ta! I think I'll go for sliders for this build to keep things straightforward, but I note they are able to print custom caps! That's very tempting should I end up building enough of a run of guitars to justify it.

Love the weird names the settings got on some sixties guitars 'Hot/Cool' 'Wild Dog'!

User avatar
Shadoweclipse13
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 12435
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:22 pm
Location: Stuck in the dimension of imagination

Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:51 am

:D That would be awesome. I've seen that, but that's a rabbit-hole I don't want to follow. I'm sure it'd be expensive, and knowing me, I'd end up rewiring my whole house with those things just to be funny. All my lightswitches would be renamed "blinky bois" or something stupid like that :D :D

Image
I've got a set of the NKK rockers (these are the wide ones*) for a guitar project, and they are awesome. Some of the cap colors were a bitch to find though.

*Wide is misleading, just so you know. The wide caps are longer, not wider. I thought the narrow ones would be narrow like the switches on the old Fender Marauders, but they're actually shorter in length (going from top to bottom across the cap in my picture above).
Pickup Switching Mad Scientist
http://www.offsetguitars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=104282&p=1438384#p1438384

User avatar
mgeek
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 1436
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:03 pm

Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by mgeek » Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:10 am

Shadoweclipse13 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:51 am
:D That would be awesome. I've seen that, but that's a rabbit-hole I don't want to follow. I'm sure it'd be expensive, and knowing me, I'd end up rewiring my whole house with those things just to be funny. All my lightswitches would be renamed "blinky bois" or something stupid like that :D :D

Image
I've got a set of the NKK rockers (these are the wide ones*) for a guitar project, and they are awesome. Some of the cap colors were a bitch to find though.

*Wide is misleading, just so you know. The wide caps are longer, not wider. I thought the narrow ones would be narrow like the switches on the old Fender Marauders, but they're actually shorter in length (going from top to bottom across the cap in my picture above).
I'll get properly stuck in with the measurements later, I'm wondering if they might be a bit more 'mini' than I'd like? The Fenton Weill switches (which came from woolworths!) are about an inch, inch and a half long cap, which is quite satisfying..though I could possibly mould my own, slightly larger ones to get the look I want...hmm!

Happy to go halves on a set of Blinkybois! ;D

User avatar
Shadoweclipse13
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 12435
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:22 pm
Location: Stuck in the dimension of imagination

Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:53 am

Hahaha. I think mine (the ones shown there) are at least an inch long, possibly an inch and a half. I think they're close to 3/4" wide. Not as small as you might think.
Pickup Switching Mad Scientist
http://www.offsetguitars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=104282&p=1438384#p1438384

User avatar
Shadoweclipse13
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 12435
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:22 pm
Location: Stuck in the dimension of imagination

Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:55 am

mgeek wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:10 am
Image
Mgeek, all done! The part with the rotary: the important thing is to make sure to make the jumpers from the first and third lugs to the second lug on the other pole, otherwise, you'll have both pickups on all the time.

Image
And an explanation of the switch just because.

As for the rotary part #, I'm not sure exactly, BUT, you'll want something that says "3 pole, 2-4 throw", because it'll have a little collar ring that stops the switch from going farther than the amount of throws you're using, i.e., no dead spots. You could technically use a 2P6T IF it can be adjustable for the throws. Small Bear has this one which I've used before to great effect.

I'll post these on the first thread page as well.
Pickup Switching Mad Scientist
http://www.offsetguitars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=104282&p=1438384#p1438384

User avatar
mgeek
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 1436
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:03 pm

Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by mgeek » Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:16 am

Shadoweclipse13 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:55 am
mgeek wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:10 am
Image
Mgeek, all done! The part with the rotary: the important thing is to make sure to make the jumpers from the first and third lugs to the second lug on the other pole, otherwise, you'll have both pickups on all the time.

Image
And an explanation of the switch just because.

As for the rotary part #, I'm not sure exactly, BUT, you'll want something that says "3 pole, 2-4 throw", because it'll have a little collar ring that stops the switch from going farther than the amount of throws you're using, i.e., no dead spots. You could technically use a 2P6T IF it can be adjustable for the throws. Small Bear has this one which I've used before to great effect.

I'll post these on the first thread page as well.
Thank you SOOOOOO much- you're a scholar and a gent! I think I know what you mean about the switches- those flimsy lorlin ones come apart and can have up to 6 positions I believe, so I get the principle

Will send pics as soon as I'm done and credit you on my build thread!

User avatar
mgeek
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 1436
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:03 pm

Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by mgeek » Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:15 am

This is actually laid out in such a way as I think I can understand what's going on, which is a first for me too, so further thanks for making it so clear!

User avatar
Shadoweclipse13
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 12435
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:22 pm
Location: Stuck in the dimension of imagination

Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:34 pm

mgeek wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:16 am
Thank you SOOOOOO much- you're a scholar and a gent! I think I know what you mean about the switches- those flimsy lorlin ones come apart and can have up to 6 positions I believe, so I get the principle

Will send pics as soon as I'm done and credit you on my build thread!
mgeek wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:15 am
This is actually laid out in such a way as I think I can understand what's going on, which is a first for me too, so further thanks for making it so clear!
You're welcome man! Any time! Definitely excited to see the build. I don't remember seeing a ton of stereo-type guitars around here. I've always messed around with the idea. I think having 2 complete and separate boards, going to 2 separate amps would be really cool. You could do that layered sound easily (like one Marshall/dark sounding, one Fender/Vox/bright sounding).
min7b5 wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:28 am
Your schematic is the next one I'm working on!
Pickup Switching Mad Scientist
http://www.offsetguitars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=104282&p=1438384#p1438384

User avatar
mgeek
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 1436
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:03 pm

Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by mgeek » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:00 am

Shadoweclipse13 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:34 pm

You're welcome man! Any time! Definitely excited to see the build. I don't remember seeing a ton of stereo-type guitars around here. I've always messed around with the idea. I think having 2 complete and separate boards, going to 2 separate amps would be really cool. You could do that layered sound easily (like one Marshall/dark sounding, one Fender/Vox/bright sounding).
I absolutely love them! I used to own the red F/W stereomaster about 2/3rds down this page http://blackguitars.com/fenton-american.html and it got me into the whole thing.

Each of those switches acts as a Left/Right for that pickup, so I'd get a pair of amps with different tremolo and reverb settings, sit in the middle and go nuts.

This should have a bit more flexibility though, and the sets of pickups I'm using will give completely different sounds...ordered all the bits last night! *waits for postman*

User avatar
Shadoweclipse13
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 12435
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:22 pm
Location: Stuck in the dimension of imagination

Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:19 am

That Stereomaster looks SO cool! I like the little tiny guard in the middle of the control area on top of the bigger guard too! What do those pickups sound like?

Did you find a decent rotary switch that you could order in country?
Pickup Switching Mad Scientist
http://www.offsetguitars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=104282&p=1438384#p1438384

User avatar
mgeek
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 1436
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:03 pm

Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by mgeek » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:55 am

Shadoweclipse13 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:19 am
That Stereomaster looks SO cool! I like the little tiny guard in the middle of the control area on top of the bigger guard too! What do those pickups sound like?

Did you find a decent rotary switch that you could order in country?
I got this- https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/362621709060

Will have to cut the spindle down but it should do the trick...Ebay has kinda ruined themselves for things like this now, just a constant wade through repeats of the same chinese listing, but i *think* that is in the UK.

The pickups on those Fenton Weills are really unusual, amongst the first to be designed and make in the UK. They tend to be about 10k, individual magnets under a chromed cover. Not loads going on in the top end, so can sound a bit flat with the wrong amp (for any kind of clean stuff i prefer a transistor amp), but they always sound killer with fuzz. Not sure what I could compare them to that is more well known cos I don't have anything that isn't a bit weird, but I imagine they are kinda p90ish, from reading about what they sound like! ;)

Not really understanding wiring, this is just a hunch, but I feel like the usual two pickup circuit Weill used didn't do the pickups any favours. Couple of resistors in there, not sure if it's to do with the fruity little switch they used (a friend has said that it works by both pickups being wired in, then shorting one out, which ends up sending loads of top end to ground...I think?) or an effort to tame the output a little and avoid distortion?

User avatar
Shadoweclipse13
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 12435
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:22 pm
Location: Stuck in the dimension of imagination

Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:35 am

That should do the trick. Make sure to get some set-screw type knobs as it's a d-shaped shaft too!

Image
This is what I was referring to about the adjustable throws. You can see the washer with the tab on it, and the little holes at the base of the shaft.

This looks like it would also work, but is in Germany. This one too, in case the one you ordered has any issues. Another good example.

Dude, those pickups sound epic! Anything that ALWAYS sounds good with fuzz, is a good thing in my book! You should record a little something of them. I'd love to hear them :) I'd love to have a set to play with too. I might have to look some up to see if I can find a set to mess with.
Pickup Switching Mad Scientist
http://www.offsetguitars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=104282&p=1438384#p1438384

User avatar
mgeek
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 1436
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:03 pm

Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by mgeek » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:37 am

Shadoweclipse13 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:35 am
That should do the trick. Make sure to get some set-screw type knobs as it's a d-shaped shaft too!


Dude, those pickups sound epic! Anything that ALWAYS sounds good with fuzz, is a good thing in my book! You should record a little something of them. I'd love to hear them :) I'd love to have a set to play with too. I might have to look some up to see if I can find a set to mess with.
Ah yes I'm all about the set screw knobs ... got a set of these for the volumes and tones, so might go for a non numbered one for the selector. They are nice and big, and suit my main requirement that they aren't anything you'd see on a Fender or Gibson!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/37mm-Alumini ... 1438.l2649

The pickups can be tricky to find on their own- the basic version with the same but undrilled covers and a bar magnet turned up on a few different guitars- Fenton Weill, Burns Weill, Broadway etc, but this particular type with the multi magnets and screw adjusters was only used on the higher end Fenton Weills, and it's likely that they only made about 4000 guitars, total over their existence, with the emphasis being on the lower end ones!

A fella called Adeson makes repros of the bar magnet ones, which are essentially a slightly fatter Tri-Sonic, but with no holes. (tri sonics were basically a copy of these, cloth wrapped coils, same construction etc)- I'll dm you a clip later, can drag something off a drive

User avatar
Shadoweclipse13
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 12435
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:22 pm
Location: Stuck in the dimension of imagination

Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:24 am

mgeek wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:37 am
Shadoweclipse13 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:35 am
That should do the trick. Make sure to get some set-screw type knobs as it's a d-shaped shaft too!


Dude, those pickups sound epic! Anything that ALWAYS sounds good with fuzz, is a good thing in my book! You should record a little something of them. I'd love to hear them :) I'd love to have a set to play with too. I might have to look some up to see if I can find a set to mess with.
Ah yes I'm all about the set screw knobs ... got a set of these for the volumes and tones, so might go for a non numbered one for the selector. They are nice and big, and suit my main requirement that they aren't anything you'd see on a Fender or Gibson!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/37mm-Alumini ... 1438.l2649

The pickups can be tricky to find on their own- the basic version with the same but undrilled covers and a bar magnet turned up on a few different guitars- Fenton Weill, Burns Weill, Broadway etc, but this particular type with the multi magnets and screw adjusters was only used on the higher end Fenton Weills, and it's likely that they only made about 4000 guitars, total over their existence, with the emphasis being on the lower end ones!

A fella called Adeson makes repros of the bar magnet ones, which are essentially a slightly fatter Tri-Sonic, but with no holes. (tri sonics were basically a copy of these, cloth wrapped coils, same construction etc)- I'll dm you a clip later, can drag something off a drive
Those knobs are great! I've got a local electronics shop near me that looks like it's straight out of the 1970's. They've got tons of cool stuff, but the knobs are my favorite. I've got some really interesting ones that I've never seen before. Might have one or two like that one. I love random knobs!!

Interesting. I'd assumed that Tri-Sonics were an original design, the way that Burns markets them. Very cool.
Pickup Switching Mad Scientist
http://www.offsetguitars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=104282&p=1438384#p1438384

User avatar
mgeek
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 1436
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:03 pm

Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by mgeek » Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:06 am

Shadoweclipse13 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:24 am

Interesting. I'd assumed that Tri-Sonics were an original design, the way that Burns markets them. Very cool.
You've done it now...I'm a huuuuuge nerd for the early UK guitar stuff. ;)

Initially there was a company called Burns-Weill, with Burns doing the woodwork and Weill supplying the electronics, which were the pickups shown on the Fenton Weill above, or variations of. Really quite massive, fabric tape wrapped coils, wound on a former, huge metal covers and baseplates

When Burns and Weill split, Weill continued with those pickups, whilst Burns 'designed his own' that are basically the same thing, only with holes in the covers, sometimes to allow individual magnets to poke through, and sometimes just with bar magnets (the latter are the type on Brian May's guitar, the multi magnet ones, as with weill, turned up on the fancier models, including the double six 12 string, for which they were REALLY unsuitable...the examples on the one I had were 14k, and as you'd imagine, not anywhere near bright enough to give you the sparkle you want from a 12)

In those days there was a *lot* of outsourcing, and suppliers changed frequently depending on who would give the best price, so when it comes to the coils, sometimes early on, Mrs Weill would wind them on a converted sewing machine, and other times they were bought in. Ultimately it's very likely that the coils used on Tri Sonics and Weill pickups were often made by exactly the same supplier, and just put together at the respective factories.

To make things even more incestuous, Vox also had pickups which were basically the same thing- any metal covered UK Vox pickup has the same fabric covered coils and bar magnets!

Aside from this there are anomalies- the very earliest 'Burns' guitars used a version of the tri sonic with no engraving on the plates, and these are absolutely tiny. Where the normal tri sonic is both wider and deeper than say a strat pickup, and the weill ones bigger still, the very early Tri's are narrower and shallower than even a strat p'up. I've got a set on a project one of these http://blackguitars.com/burns-artistes-models.html that I'm working on at the moment, really interested to hear what they sound like.

Not much of this^ is that well documented in one place...because of the Brian May connection, tri sonics are a very talked about, famous pickup, but you barely even see reference to the fact there are two types of tri sonic, let alone the early type, or the fact that under the hood 90% of UK made pickups from 1960-62 are exactly the same thing!

*edit* Btw, as of sometime next week, I'll have loose examples of almost all of these, so I can do a group shot showing the differences which is probably more useful than ^ that ;)

Post Reply