Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Talk about modding or building your own guitar from scratch.
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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by Futuron » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:07 am

Basically it's set up like an HH? 3-way switch to choose between neck pair / all 4 / bridge pair. Each pair (H) has its own 3-way slider to (theoretically) choose between both its coils in series / parallel / series but with 1 coil reversed, then a 3rd 3-way to run both pairs (H's) in series / parallel / series but with 1 pair (H) reversed? If so, let's call the individual pickups 1, 2, 3 & 4, and call them in pairs B & N. Slider X affects B, which is 1 & 2. Slider Y affects N, which is 3 & 4. Slider Z affects the whole lot. When X is switched to 'out-of-phase' mode, either pickup 1 or 2 has its input/output swapped. When Y is switched, either 3 or 4 has its I/O swapped. When Z is, either B or N has its I/O swapped (1&2, or 3&4). Let's make it simple by saying the first pickup swaps (ie X swaps 1, Y swaps 3, Z swaps B (1&2)).

The first question is a tough one, the 3-way slider design for series/parallel/coil tap can't be used or easily (that I can see) modified since the input and output are tied to wires you want to swap when doing a phase reversal. All I end up with when fiddling with that design is open or short circuits on the second coil. You can do it with 2 switches, maybe even with 3 poles on 1 switch but I've not yet seen a way to do it with a 2P3T. I will see what I can come up with from scratch, maybe someone else knows. Maybe it's impossible.

The second question though. How much cancellation on each switch you get would depend greatly on how far from each other the pickups out-of-phase are. If you've flipped both X & Y (1 & 3 out from 2 & 4), my guess is you're getting anything between a very thin sound to not much output (depending on distances), so flipping Z as well is going to probably give you a slightly different very thin to not-much-output (again depending on distances). But if instead you've flipped either X or Y (let's say X, so 1 is out from 2, 3 & 4), it'll just sound slightly thin, so flipping Z as well will give you a different slightly thin (hopefully discernably so) (2 is out from 1, 3 & 4). If you've flipped neither X nor Y, it'll sound full, and flipping Z will give you another very thin sound (1 & 2 out from 3 & 4). In the last case there should still be a useful amount of output since the 2 out-of-phase pickups are the furthest distance away from the other 2, but in the first case they could really cancel a lot.

It's getting late and my brain has gone AFK, the fingers are possibly making up stories so I'd better leave it there for today, and someone else can correct me overnight...
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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by Gordon » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:09 am

Shadoweclipse13 wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:22 pm
I received an email request for a schematic with 2 things I'm curious about. The guitar in question will have space for 3 pots, 3-way toggle, and 3 2P3T Mustang slider switches. He was wanting to see about getting series-parallel AND phase on a single Mustang slider. I've been looking for years to cram more function into those 3-way sliders, and can never figure out a way to get everything. I have my doubts, but I was wondering if you guys knew of a way to do that.
So, for two pickups?
Shadoweclipse13 wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:22 pm
The second thing is about phase. The guitar he's building will have 4 pickups, 2 grouped close like a humbucker, 1 in bridge position, 1 in neck. He's wanting a switch for each separate pair to have a phase switch (out of phase humbucker basically) and a phase between the 2 positions. It's never come up for me, but how would 2 or more phase switches interact with each other? If you had 1 group of two close pickups (let's say neck position) out of phase with each other, and flipped the phase switch to be out of phase between the neck and bridge position, would it be back in phase? Have any sound difference? Have any output signal?
This is useless, IMHO. More or less in this case; but pickups would be too close to be usable. Thin, low volume, and non-humbucking. The phase switch in between the two "humbuckers"would work as usual, but it would make an even more useless sound if one of the pickup is already out-of-phase with itself.

I've had plans for years for a 4-pickups guitar, with the same "humbucker" system (neck 1 and 2, and bridge 1 and 2). Thought about it a lot, and the best setting (IMHO) is having three Tele 4-ways (so to make A / AB series / AB parallel / B):

- one for N1 & N2
- one for B1 & B2
- one for N(12) & B(12)

(the first two can be replaced by mini-switches, but the last one is better with a blade switch: easier to read)

With a phase switch after N(12), you can get all the usable combinations. More is technically possible, but useless and clumsy. And more components may affect the signal. If that helps to think things out...
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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:35 am

Futuron wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:07 am
The first question is a tough one, the 3-way slider design for series/parallel/coil tap can't be used or easily (that I can see) modified since the input and output are tied to wires you want to swap when doing a phase reversal. All I end up with when fiddling with that design is open or short circuits on the second coil. You can do it with 2 switches, maybe even with 3 poles on 1 switch but I've not yet seen a way to do it with a 2P3T. I will see what I can come up with from scratch, maybe someone else knows. Maybe it's impossible.
This was my thinking as well. As much as it looks like you can cram A LOT more function into 2P3T sliders because of the extra 2 contacts, there's not that much more you can add, in my experience. I have my doubts that we could fit anymore in, but I thought I'd ask.
Futuron wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:07 am
The second question though. How much cancellation on each switch you get would depend greatly on how far from each other the pickups out-of-phase are. If you've flipped both X & Y (1 & 3 out from 2 & 4), my guess is you're getting anything between a very thin sound to not much output (depending on distances), so flipping Z as well is going to probably give you a slightly different very thin to not-much-output (again depending on distances). But if instead you've flipped either X or Y (let's say X, so 1 is out from 2, 3 & 4), it'll just sound slightly thin, so flipping Z as well will give you a different slightly thin (hopefully discernably so) (2 is out from 1, 3 & 4). If you've flipped neither X nor Y, it'll sound full, and flipping Z will give you another very thin sound (1 & 2 out from 3 & 4). In the last case there should still be a useful amount of output since the 2 out-of-phase pickups are the furthest distance away from the other 2, but in the first case they could really cancel a lot.
Also kinda where I was thinking. Wanted to see if I actually had wrapped my mind around it properly :D The reason I was curious though is because, I thought I'd seen some manufacturers make humbuckers that way. Like, proper made humbuckers, wired as 2-conductor, where one coil is out of phase with the other. Now, I don't see phase switches on Les Pauls or SG's that often, but if that was the case, you could theoretically see a set-up that have both humbuckers with one coil out of phase with the other, and both pickups out of phase from the other. My guess is that the output would be incredibly low, and if not, it would be so thin as to be unusable, but again, wanted to see if I was wrong for thinking so.
Gordon wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:09 am
So, for two pickups?
I think he was asking about how to get all 3 2P3T sliders to work the same (series/parallel/phase for the bridge cluster, series/parallel/phase for the neck cluster, and series/parallel/phase for bridge cluster vs neck cluster).
Gordon wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:09 am
This is useless, IMHO. More or less in this case; but pickups would be too close to be usable. Thin, low volume, and non-humbucking. The phase switch in between the two "humbuckers"would work as usual, but it would make an even more useless sound if one of the pickup is already out-of-phase with itself.

I've had plans for years for a 4-pickups guitar, with the same "humbucker" system (neck 1 and 2, and bridge 1 and 2). Thought about it a lot, and the best setting (IMHO) is having three Tele 4-ways (so to make A / AB series / AB parallel / B):

- one for N1 & N2
- one for B1 & B2
- one for N(12) & B(12)

(the first two can be replaced by mini-switches, but the last one is better with a blade switch: easier to read)

With a phase switch after N(12), you can get all the usable combinations. More is technically possible, but useless and clumsy. And more components may affect the signal. If that helps to think things out...
I do agree. My first thought when he asked was "why would you want that thin of a sound, if it's possible". I think series/parallel would be more usable. I DO really like the idea of a 4-pickup setup, with two close clusters of pickups, like a homemade pseudo-humbucker. I think you could do some really cool switching things with that. I like your idea with the 4-way switches! I had an idea years ago to do a 2-humbucker guitar with a blend control between 2 separate single coils (one bridge cluster, one neck cluster). I also thought of doing something similar where you could basically send the signals for the inner two (or outer two, or both north coils/both south coils) to a second jack, like a stereo Rickenbacker thing. I've had lots of mad ideas, but have never really experimented with any of them.
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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by Futuron » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:15 am

Funnily enough, lately I've been thinking about making some kind of HH setup. Modify an American Professional Jaguar (4-way blade for pickup select, phase switch to reverse the bridge) by replacing the pickups and adding a 3-way Mustang 2P3T switch on each for series/parallel/single coil on the upper control plate. 4 separate pickups does seem interesting.

It doesn't give you the option of choosing the other 2 coils separately though. But someone tell me where on a guitar you're going to fit 3 4-way blades! Behind the bridge?
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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:49 am

Futuron wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:15 am
Funnily enough, lately I've been thinking about making some kind of HH setup. Modify an American Professional Jaguar (4-way blade for pickup select, phase switch to reverse the bridge) by replacing the pickups and adding a 3-way Mustang 2P3T switch on each for series/parallel/single coil on the upper control plate. 4 separate pickups does seem interesting.

It doesn't give you the option of choosing the other 2 coils separately though. But someone tell me where on a guitar you're going to fit 3 4-way blades! Behind the bridge?
You could totally use the trick I used for my Strazz or Bass design: basically use 1 2P3T switches for each cluster, wired like a 2-pickup selector switch, and then a third one wired the same way for just the neck cluster and bridge cluster. It works really well. Plus, in this case, you'd have a visual cue as to what's selected...
Image
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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by SY6655321 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:54 pm

ThePearDream wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:32 pm
I just took out the strangle switch on my overly bright thinline sparkle Talman and put in the rhythm/lead tone switch. It does seem to work.
I tweaked the diagram a bit and did it like this:

Image

I'll test it out again on my pink Jazzcaster (it has JM pickups) soon, so I can A/B it against my VM Jazzmaster and get a better sense of how accurate it is.
Cool idea. I saw in ThePearDream's Coyote thread they ended up getting rid of the cap and using just a 47k resistor as the load. My question for you guys is if you switched the resistor to the output lug of the volume pot, would you get the same loading effect and the benefits of 50's wiring?

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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by ThePearDream » Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:11 am

I can't answer SY6655321's question, but it reminded me that I never followed up.

I wired up some leads with alligator clips in my Nebula, since the control plate made it easy to access the switch. I tested out a range of resistors (51k, 47k, 43k, 39k) with and without caps. I found the caps didn't create any discernible difference in tone. The differences between resistor values were very subtle, and I settled on 47k as my preference, but YMMV.

It's worth pointing out that the resistors I used have a 1% tolerance, whereas CTS pots are 10% and the Alphas in Squiers can be up to 20%. So, if you want to match an actual guitar, there is no substitute for measuring with a multi-meter. As it happens, I have two Alpha 50k pots that I pulled out of Squiers, and surprisingly, both measure 52k.

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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by oid » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:43 am

Shadoweclipse13 wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:22 pm
I received an email request for a schematic with 2 things I'm curious about. The guitar in question will have space for 3 pots, 3-way toggle, and 3 2P3T Mustang slider switches. He was wanting to see about getting series-parallel AND phase on a single Mustang slider. I've been looking for years to cram more function into those 3-way sliders, and can never figure out a way to get everything. I have my doubts, but I was wondering if you guys knew of a way to do that.
Have not been on the net much lately, so slow to answer! You would need another pole, but simple enough to manage once you have that extra pole. Last I looked a 3p3t for the same hole was available, not much for colors though, pretty much basic black.
The second thing is about phase. The guitar he's building will have 4 pickups, 2 grouped close like a humbucker, 1 in bridge position, 1 in neck. He's wanting a switch for each separate pair to have a phase switch (out of phase humbucker basically) and a phase between the 2 positions. It's never come up for me, but how would 2 or more phase switches interact with each other? If you had 1 group of two close pickups (let's say neck position) out of phase with each other, and flipped the phase switch to be out of phase between the neck and bridge position, would it be back in phase? Have any sound difference? Have any output signal?
If those two pickups making up the humbucker were matched and you put them out of phase, anything both pickups see the same is canceled, since they are mounted so close to each other that pretty much means the fundamental and the first handful harmonics cancel from the string and we are left with the weak higher harmonics, you also would regain some of the high harmonics that humbuckers normally cancel. So, if you flip the bridge phase, any of those high harmonics left in the neck pickup that the bridge sees the same way are also canceled, so the bridge now becomes darker since you just removed some of that high harmonics. A long and complicated way to make a lowpass filter. There could be some good sounds in there though, it is quite different than a lowpass, and if those humbuckers are made up of two very different sounding pickups you will cancel less from the humbucking pair and more from the neck/bridge combination. Lots of math or experimentation would be needed, or just a little luck.

I assumed you understand vibrating strings and their harmonics and can apply that knowledge, to late to write essays.
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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:52 pm

oid wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:43 am
Shadoweclipse13 wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:22 pm
I received an email request for a schematic with 2 things I'm curious about. The guitar in question will have space for 3 pots, 3-way toggle, and 3 2P3T Mustang slider switches. He was wanting to see about getting series-parallel AND phase on a single Mustang slider. I've been looking for years to cram more function into those 3-way sliders, and can never figure out a way to get everything. I have my doubts, but I was wondering if you guys knew of a way to do that.
Have not been on the net much lately, so slow to answer! You would need another pole, but simple enough to manage once you have that extra pole. Last I looked a 3p3t for the same hole was available, not much for colors though, pretty much basic black.
The second thing is about phase. The guitar he's building will have 4 pickups, 2 grouped close like a humbucker, 1 in bridge position, 1 in neck. He's wanting a switch for each separate pair to have a phase switch (out of phase humbucker basically) and a phase between the 2 positions. It's never come up for me, but how would 2 or more phase switches interact with each other? If you had 1 group of two close pickups (let's say neck position) out of phase with each other, and flipped the phase switch to be out of phase between the neck and bridge position, would it be back in phase? Have any sound difference? Have any output signal?
If those two pickups making up the humbucker were matched and you put them out of phase, anything both pickups see the same is canceled, since they are mounted so close to each other that pretty much means the fundamental and the first handful harmonics cancel from the string and we are left with the weak higher harmonics, you also would regain some of the high harmonics that humbuckers normally cancel. So, if you flip the bridge phase, any of those high harmonics left in the neck pickup that the bridge sees the same way are also canceled, so the bridge now becomes darker since you just removed some of that high harmonics. A long and complicated way to make a lowpass filter. There could be some good sounds in there though, it is quite different than a lowpass, and if those humbuckers are made up of two very different sounding pickups you will cancel less from the humbucking pair and more from the neck/bridge combination. Lots of math or experimentation would be needed, or just a little luck.

I assumed you understand vibrating strings and their harmonics and can apply that knowledge, to late to write essays.
I've never really gotten into harmonics and frequencies like that, no. It's very interesting, but I've never really studied it.
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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by oid » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:10 am

Shadoweclipse13 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:52 pm
I've never really gotten into harmonics and frequencies like that, no. It's very interesting, but I've never really studied it.
Image
First harmonic (fundamental) is the entire string, the two coils of a humbucker see pretty much the same thing, just a slight difference in amplitude, same with the first few harmonics, but as the harmonics get higher the length of the vibration gets shorter and once the length of the vibration gets near the length of the distance between the two coils of the humbucker each coil sees that harmonic in a different phase so some of it gets canceled, this is part of why humbuckers sound darker than single coils, there is a good amount of cancellation in those higher harmonics.

If you consider the above image as the full length of the string on a guitar and scribbled in a humbucker in the appropriate place and of the appropriate scale, you can see the short high harmonics can be and are in different phases between the two coils, so they cancel to some degree, and at times cancel completely and anytime the vibrational node lines up between the two coils you also get some cancellation, even if it is a lower harmonic, tells you about some of the difference between the sound of a neck and bridge humbucker.

That image tells a great deal and shows how a string vibrates and the differences in amplitude of the first 32 harmonics.
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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:24 am

That's really interesting. I'll have to do some research. That's something I'd like to know more about ;D
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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by mgeek » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:43 am

Hey dude, just pondering something at the moment and would love your thoughts.

Got a stereo guitar a while ago and just getting round to sorting it out. Turns out the wiring is Neck/Both/Bridge, duplicated twice, ie you can have the same thing going to each output or something different.

Problem is, I'd got it into my head that each three way switch was a Left/Centre/Right pan, ie you'd be able to have both pickups going to the same output, then flick one into the other channel and get a completely different sound going.

Is that something that would be at all feasible, using the original switches etc, do you think?

Not sure it's something I'll actually do, cos I can always just get a kill switch pedal or a volume pedal for one of the channels, but I'd be really interested to know if it could actually work

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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by Futuron » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:08 am

What are the knobs? Does each output have its own volume/tone control for example? Just curious.

Interesting idea with the pan switches. The limitation you'd give yourself is that each pickup has to be output to at least one channel at all times. Too bad if you'd just want the neck pickup in both left and right with bridge in neither.

Should be easy to wire though. If it's Tele style 3-way blades, each would look like this:
Image

Or DPDTs (either type of on/on/on) like this:
Image
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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by mgeek » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:24 am

Futuron wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:08 am
What are the knobs? Does each output have its own volume/tone control for example? Just curious.

Interesting idea with the pan switches. The limitation you'd give yourself is that each pickup has to be output to at least one channel at all times. Too bad if you'd just want the neck pickup in both left and right with bridge in neither.
Thanks for the reply! It's a volume and tone for each pickup, kinda les paul setup, except for the two outputs situation. I'm not entirely certain what the switches are ...I'll have a look when I get home and post pictures. They are pretty unusual, but I think Les Paul type toggles

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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:44 pm

I don't know for sure as I've never messed with stereo setups, but I don't see why you couldn't have 1 3-way toggle for each output (B/B+N/N). If I had a stereo guitar, I would have the pickups each run to both switches, both switches wired as a 3-way (B/B+N/N), and I'd just have an on/off or killswitch for one of the output jacks. That way, there's always something that's on for each output if you've got both engaged, and you could have both be the same pickups, or both have different pickups. Would that cause weird phasing issues? If it didn't, I'd probably rewire the pots to be a master volume and tone for each output, instead of for each pickup.
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