HELP, I think I've ruined a neck

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oid
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Re: HELP, I think I've ruined a neck

Post by oid » Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:07 pm

Amon 7.L wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:55 am
Don't worry, Steadyriot.. the drawing is perfectly clear and the suggestion is quite cool and gave me some further ideas!!
During these past days I couldn't work on the neck but I managed to think about a solution quite similar to your sketch, check it out!:
This is what I was getting at when I mentioned making a jig a test neck out 2x4 to practice on, forgot that routing necks this way is largely in the realm of the repair world. Glad someone with a little more sense came along! I would use a collar instead of an index pin, easier on complex shapes.

A few points to help.
Using a gramil to score the line on the fretboard will help greatly with chip out, remember that you are essentially leaving a board/starting a new board at every fret slot and chip out can happen, If you do not have a gramil do it in at least two passes if not three so you can see if there are any spots where the grain does something weird and wants to chip. Any bad spots you can just skip on the final pass and finish up with a chisel. Go ahead and do full depth from the get go though,either set the bit just a hair above the glue line or just below, if you set it right at it, it can cause tear out on the neck, maple is generally not a problem though. Setting the bit just above the glue line often works quite well, the violence of the router will often break the glues hold on that thin thin sliver, depending on the glue you are working with, but that may or may not work on a recently glued neck, works great on ones with a few decades behind them. Generally the binding is thicker then the fretboard, so you do not need to worry about this, but the geometry of the neck ultimately determines the binding size in such cases.

Good luck!
Logic gates based on billiard-ball computer designs have also been made to operate using live soldier crabs of the species Mictyris guinotae in place of the billiard balls.

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Amon 7.L
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Re: HELP, I think I've ruined a neck

Post by Amon 7.L » Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:22 pm

Oid,
Thank you HEAPS for reminding me such a crucial factor within this task: the risk of tear-out in the sections prior-post fret slots.
This and the note about the glue line is something I would have really underlooked and that I will now must take into serious account.

I don't have a gramil at my disposal, therefore I think that after testing the Jig's behave against a guinea piece of wood, I'll have to go with shallow passes and see how the fretboard bears the blade in those crucial slots.
Being the top of the fretboard already radiused means there's less material to remove on the sides, so I'd like to think that a sharp blade would not be a great threat to those spots but, who knows.. better to be safe than sorry, I guess.

In regard to the index pin I do in fact intend to use a collet for a better overall flow all around the neck profile, so.. good call on that remark as well, mate.

I'm pretty scare about doing this procedure but at the same time I'm really excited and willing to try, after all there is a lesson to learn, regardless.

Thank you all for the precious support, guys.
Stay tuned :)

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Re: HELP, I think I've ruined a neck

Post by ludobag1 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:46 pm

a router Under table for that will be more safe for the neck cause much more stable ( but carefull router table is more risky for fingers)
anf if you have a nice cut you can glue rosewood instead of binding
think twice before doing cause now you haven t guide to work you need to create them ;)

also for the oversanded side ,i look at profil neck (google) and fender make them ( they have a profil where the side of fretboard are rounded

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Re: HELP, I think I've ruined a neck

Post by Steadyriot. » Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:46 pm

Amon 7.L wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:55 am
blimpage wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:38 am
Steadyriot. wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:26 am
This may be the shittiest drawing I ever made, but I'm on my phone and on the train so this is all you get! ;)
You are a hero and we do not deserve you.
+1! :D

Don't worry, Steadyriot.. the drawing is perfectly clear and the suggestion is quite cool and gave me some further ideas!!
During these past days I couldn't work on the neck but I managed to think about a solution quite similar to your sketch, check it out!:

Image

Just as your advice, I thought about a jig with the router fixed on top of a board with an index pin with a gap of 1.55mm (binding thickness) so that I can double side tape my actual neck on top of an identical neck blank I already have or either to the master template, so that the pin has a constant wall all around the neck profile whilst the router bit on top will cut the slot on the fretboard.

I think this weekend I'll be able to build the jig and hopefully make a test to see how things will roll..
Oh man, that's an even better idea, it takes holding the router (and all the risks with that) fully out of the equation! That'll be a nice jig. Even if it fails (which I don't think it will!) You (and the forum) will have learned a great deal.
Glad I could help and thanks for all the love guys!
higgsblossom wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:09 am
I must say I'm not a guitar builder myself but I do enjoy reading threads like this on this forum a lot. So many people helping each other, I love you guys :-*
This is exactly why I stick around on this page (and have left so many other forums behind), everyone is helpfull! Sure, sometimes people can get a bit opinionated but it's always respectful and with the best intentions at heart.
Plus all the cool projects going on all the time! Most pages host 59 cookie cutter Les Paul builds, but here people tend to get a bit freaky and I love that.
Thanks OSG ! :-*
"If someone duetted with a Bald Eagle, they could rule the Country charts from here to eternity." ~shadowplay

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Re: HELP, I think I've ruined a neck

Post by Amon 7.L » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:04 pm

ludobag1 wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:46 pm
a router Under table for that will be more safe for the neck cause much more stable ( but carefull router table is more risky for fingers)
anf if you have a nice cut you can glue rosewood instead of binding
think twice before doing cause now you haven t guide to work you need to create them ;)

also for the oversanded side ,i look at profil neck (google) and fender make them ( they have a profil where the side of fretboard are rounded
I wish I could have gone router table-wise but being the fretboard already radiused and the neck back profiled made this option out of question as it would put me in the situation of building some sort of template with a curvature that matches the 7.25 radii for which I should make a custom jig, then jig something up to route the binding channel without the specific binding router bit.

The cut is not even enough for the bubinga to be glued and I don't trust it in terms of longevity as Oid pointed out. More tests would need to be done as I am a complete rookie and the risk of messing things up is high.

Still.. I manage to make some progresses:
Behold, I'm giving you.. The ghetto jig:
Image

Everything is screwed together and the router-bit is offsetted 1.55 mm from the bearing pinned to the base plate, just the actual ABS thickness as shown:
Image

Then I've double-side taped the neck to a blank for a fully-walled profile for the pin bearing to run against:
Image

Now, most certainly sure that Mr Murphy is following my steps with his foot ready to get in the way, I picked-up a telecaster neck blank and decided that his destiny is about to be fulfilled. There you guy, my guinea wooden piggy ready for a shave..
Image

Time to fire things up and make some sawdust.. I went slooooowly and steady with one side, then I ran off to mock it up with the binding.. I was amazed... The slot was PERFECT! :wtf:
Image

All jiggling, I went ahead and ran the other side of the neck under the blade. Everything was going well up until the moment it was time for the neck heel to get contoured..: Disaster.
Image
A big chunk just detached from the blank's heel :fp:
Murphy, was it you, bugger?? >:(

Anyway, nothing a bit of glue and a clamp can't fix.. The sun was already down and call it a day.

Conclusions:
The ghetto jig SEEMS to work, I want/need to do some further tests to gain confidence and deal with it and avoid the risk of not having full control whilst routing that crucial area.

"Do or do not, there is not try"
hopefully learning.

Cheers

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Re: HELP, I think I've ruined a neck

Post by oid » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:33 pm

Amon 7.L wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:04 pm
All jiggling, I went ahead and ran the other side of the neck under the blade. Everything was going well up until the moment it was time for the neck heel to get contoured..: Disaster.
You need to pay attention to grain direction, as you came around the crown of the heel the bit was spinning into the grain in the worst way possible and when you hit the corner the bit was acting more like a high powered froe , this is why I mentioned not taking the full cut in one pass. Fiddle your jig so you can do half or a third of the bindings thickness at a time and you SHOULD be good, or just do that part by hand.
Logic gates based on billiard-ball computer designs have also been made to operate using live soldier crabs of the species Mictyris guinotae in place of the billiard balls.

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Re: HELP, I think I've ruined a neck

Post by Amon 7.L » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:52 pm

oid wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:33 pm
Amon 7.L wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:04 pm
All jiggling, I went ahead and ran the other side of the neck under the blade. Everything was going well up until the moment it was time for the neck heel to get contoured..: Disaster.
You need to pay attention to grain direction, as you came around the crown of the heel the bit was spinning into the grain in the worst way possible and when you hit the corner the bit was acting more like a high powered froe , this is why I mentioned not taking the full cut in one pass. Fiddle your jig so you can do half or a third of the bindings thickness at a time and you SHOULD be good, or just do that part by hand.
Yup, exactly what happened.. I just lost eye contact with the pin bearing that was behind and below the back of the neck and even thou my intent was to go easy against the blade, I pushed it more than it was necessary. Obviously the router bit appreciated my passion and shown who's in command.
I'll try to be more careful and follow your advice.

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Re: HELP, I think I've ruined a neck

Post by Amon 7.L » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:48 am

It has been longer than expected but yesterday I've managed to work on this rescue mission. After some tweaking within the jig and some tests on scrap wood, I went ahead with the actual neck..
Here's the result:
Image
Image

I went really slow and with three shallow passes, no tear out whatsover, fret and nut slots weren't compromised at all. Bubinga seems to hold up pretty well even deeper cuts with a single pass.

One thing that still gives me headache is the fact that even with the binding slot now in place, the maple area where I've sanded & rounded too much has a slimmer "bed" width for the binding to be set, so it does stick out a bit on the bottom side compared to the rest of the profile.
I guess/hope that sanding and recurving the binding along the the maple transition will take care of the issue.

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Re: HELP, I think I've ruined a neck

Post by oid » Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:14 am

Well done!

You got this, just take your time on any neck reshaping and no one will ever know your ordeal unless you tell them.
Logic gates based on billiard-ball computer designs have also been made to operate using live soldier crabs of the species Mictyris guinotae in place of the billiard balls.

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Re: HELP, I think I've ruined a neck

Post by Amon 7.L » Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:40 pm

oid wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:14 am
Well done!

You got this, just take your time on any neck reshaping and no one will ever know your ordeal unless you tell them.
Thank you heaps for your support, kind Sir!
No one will know our little secret, unless they already do. :ph34r:

I've found some spare UHU cyanoacrylate I had lying around and did a quick test gluing a piece of ABS to the guinea pig neck I've used so far.. It was bloody fast! Just literally a few minutes later it was completely fully attached!!
I've read opposite opinions about cyanoacrylate.. some say it's perfect for the jobs whilst others say it's not advisable to use it due to its tendency to make the binding swell and contract. Furthermore, it also avoids stain from penetrating the woods..
I'm going to buy some acetone and have a go with it, seems like it's a common choice among our fellows on OSG, so.. I'm confident with their more trained experience..

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Re: HELP, I think I've ruined a neck

Post by oid » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:06 pm

Amon 7.L wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:40 pm
I've read opposite opinions about cyanoacrylate.
Of course you have, that tends to be the case when it comes to opinions. They are both completely adequate and many fine instruments have been made with both methods.
Logic gates based on billiard-ball computer designs have also been made to operate using live soldier crabs of the species Mictyris guinotae in place of the billiard balls.

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Re: HELP, I think I've ruined a neck

Post by Amon 7.L » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:33 pm

oid wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:06 pm
Amon 7.L wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:40 pm
I've read opposite opinions about cyanoacrylate.
Of course you have, that tends to be the case when it comes to opinions. They are both completely adequate and many fine instruments have been made with both methods.
Good Sir, you're right by the notch. 8)
It took a while but after getting a hold of a can of acetone, I've started doing some test and I learned that -as you correctly stated- both methods are efficient but even thou cyanoacrylate is indeed faster and doesn't turn the abs into a gummy mess whilst in contact with acetone, the latter is much friendlier to be handle for a rookie.
Anyway.. Less talk, more rock:

Image
first side went on in like 30 minutes..
Image
the other side went on even faster..!! :w00t:
Image
Then some hassle caused by the masking tape.. as I took it off, the fretboard was over-flooded by sticky glue and this is the mess I've gotten when I hit the binding with the scraper :fp:

No big deal thou.. some linseed oil took care of the glue and I just went ahead scraping the rest of the binding flush with the fretboard. Here:
Image
Image
It's bound!! :w00t:
There still some further sanding to dial a few spots on the top radius but I'm so glad that the scariest part has been done successfully.
I gotta say thanks to you guys for the support. You're A C E.

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Re: HELP, I think I've ruined a neck

Post by oid » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:58 pm

That looks great! Nicely done.

Acetone is very sensitive to temperature, when it is hot it evaporates quickly and you have to really soak the wood to have enough time to get the binding on before to much has evaporated away. When it is cold it evaporates slowly and you have to use less or the binding will turn into a gooey mess. The wood itself also plays a role, more porous and drier wood will suck up the acetone almost as quickly as you put it down, while a wetter chunk of dense wood will let it just sit on the surface. These issues also affect CA, just to a lesser degree. There are both useful methods to know, if you do this enough you will eventually come across a situation where one just does not work no matter what you do.

Can't wait to see the finished guitar.
Logic gates based on billiard-ball computer designs have also been made to operate using live soldier crabs of the species Mictyris guinotae in place of the billiard balls.

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Re: HELP, I think I've ruined a neck

Post by Amon 7.L » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:27 am

oid wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:58 pm
That looks great! Nicely done.

Acetone is very sensitive to temperature, when it is hot it evaporates quickly and you have to really soak the wood to have enough time to get the binding on before to much has evaporated away. When it is cold it evaporates slowly and you have to use less or the binding will turn into a gooey mess. The wood itself also plays a role, more porous and drier wood will suck up the acetone almost as quickly as you put it down, while a wetter chunk of dense wood will let it just sit on the surface. These issues also affect CA, just to a lesser degree. There are both useful methods to know, if you do this enough you will eventually come across a situation where one just does not work no matter what you do.

Can't wait to see the finished guitar.
Oid, Thank you for your massive support and encouragement during this task, it has been precious.

Indeed, both wood species and temperature play a huge role in the game but luckily, even with the 38°C we had these past few days, and the wood sucking on the acetone pretty fast, it all went surprisingly good.

Next weekend I'll be working again on the neck and see if I can smudge some abs paste in a tiny spot in the heel area. Then final sanding on the top radius and furthermore on the back profiling. Still lots to do but I'm looking forward to complete the project.
If anyone is interested I might do a full thread about the Jagstang from scratch.
Laters :)

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Re: HELP, I think I've ruined a neck

Post by higgsblossom » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:24 am

You may now change the title of this thread to something like "I've saved a neck" ;) :)
"500€? That's the price of a J Mascis Jazzmaster!"

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