JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

[AcrylicSuperman]

For the neck, since it's an MG69, do you have/know where I can find good reference documents for making one of those on CAD?

Do you also have any images of the prototype's routing? I tried to line up the wood cut body early in this thread but it didn't match at all.

You'll have to probably wait for Amon to reply in regards to these questions. I'm primarily research.

But I can tell you that we have no internal photos of the jagstang prototypes routing. However, we do have the depths for the pickup routes. According to some former master builders, they were using specific tolerances with their cnc machine and they can be found in this thread. Over all, it is essentially a slightly modified mustang route. No additional routing was done internally in the time Cobain owned it. Can't speak for Buck. I don't know if any of that helped or not, but it is the best I can offer at the moment.

Darn, any drawings of Amon's internals would be appreciated. As I said I tried drawing over one of the images but it didn't line up right and so I scrapped it. I did find Mustang internals but I'm not sure if any trouble was encountered and would like to get it right the first time around as I do not have a pin-router to use.

Shoot him a private message.

[Amon 7.L]

For the neck, since it's an MG69, do you have/know where I can find good reference documents for making one of those on CAD?

Do you also have any images of the prototype's routing? I tried to line up the wood cut body early in this thread but it didn't match at all.

You'll have to probably wait for Amon to reply in regards to these questions. I'm primarily research.

But I can tell you that we have no internal photos of the jagstang prototypes routing. However, we do have the depths for the pickup routes. According to some former master builders, they were using specific tolerances with their cnc machine and they can be found in this thread. Over all, it is essentially a slightly modified mustang route. No additional routing was done internally in the time Cobain owned it. Can't speak for Buck. I don't know if any of that helped or not, but it is the best I can offer at the moment.

Darn, any drawings of Amon's internals would be appreciated. As I said I tried drawing over one of the images but it didn't line up right and so I scrapped it. I did find Mustang internals but I'm not sure if any trouble was encountered and would like to get it right the first time around as I do not have a pin-router to use.

So, you're trying to reverse engineer my reverse engineering without considering the main problem that causes all the issues: perspective.
What can I say if not: Welcome to my personal Hell.

As AcrylicSuperman already stated, we don't have any internal shot of the inner routes.

I'm not home at the moment but all the information we could provide is gathered in this very thread.
Each step is documented and numbers are given. I know it’s pretty lengthy but it might be worth of your time, if you have the patience to get through it.

The neck I’ve built is custom, standard USA heel-sized (55.56mm) and the profile is just carved by feel, whilst a standard MG 69 RI’s heel is slightly larger (mine measures 56.88mm) and it has a C profile, according to Fender Japan.

For what concerns the inner routes: don’t stress yourself too much, you have already found the Mustang internals, it's just what I've used as layout with the addiction of the HB, so you're already good to go.
As with any build, tests and eventual tweaks are necessary, so be prepared.

If I/we were to describe all the background and behind the scene work, this thread would be 200 pages long, to say the least.

[Amon 7.L]

Hi guys,
As with every saga having a well set end, there’s always the chance of a sequel, a prequel, a spin off… or something else… like this.

I found another pro-shot of the Jagstang.
It seems to be taken from the same photographer who took the one AcrylicSuperman sent me a while ago and then posted in this thread as well.
This one has much less stage lights influence, there's basically no yellow light, just an ever so slightly cast of reddish hue to deal with. You can also notice the presence of the writing under the Fender logo, just as an extra confirmation for the previous founding.
There you have it:


Now, as anticipated, it looks like there's something else going on: an unexpected plot twist.

I saw that colour before, it's among those in the Encycolorpedia colour chart I provided previously and also well studied earlier in the behind-the-scene work: it's General Motors Sonic Blue.
I won't flood you with all the tests I've done on both CAD and Photoshop but, I promise you, both the colour of the Rev. 7f mock-up displayed at page 1 AND our latest “custom Daphne” are completely compatible with this latest lighting study.

I'm thinking… if we want an official standardised colour that gets the closest without being an alteration of the Sherwin Williams Sonic Blue (which would have been the American shade), this is our best shot compared to this pro-shot.

Fender 72 Sonic Blue is too light, it's almost white;
Fender Japan Sonic Blue is too much on the green side;
General Motors Sonic Blue is the old one in the nitro formulae which I have confirmation holding a much higher content of grey in its original shade, it eventually is what seems to get all the check boxes marked out.

Here's the colour indoors:


Then a comparison with the guitar in daylight AND the same render with a filtered hue (you can see the reference in the value as well) that matches the light's impact on the actual real Jag-stang at the side of the snapshot.
I've simulated the light until the shade of the ever so slightly "pink" on the pickguard matched the render's.


Considering we can't turn back the time and have a sneak peak of how the guitar looked straight out of the hands of Larry Brooks, I think that there's really nothing else I can do until some better pro-shot comes out.

Therefore, given the circumstances, the leeway of the "custom colour" dogma and remarking the fact I'm talking about colour ballpark, I give you:


(side note, it's quite similar to Japanese Daphne.)


Furthermore, quoting the Jarman's from another thread we know this:
http://www.offsetguitars.com/forums/vie ... 0#p1594840

Haven’t posted here in ages - but just to say:

Pete Buck does indeed own this guitar. I’ve seen it, so don’t believe the conspiracy theorists!

The lettering under the logo reads “custom”. It’s not a real sonic blue - kind of a dirty greenish blue. Single ply plain white pickguard. Slightly different lower horn shape.

I would post a photo but don’t know how to share.

The photo has never been shared so far, the only thing I can do for you is to give you my take on it knowing those colour coordinates and that it has aged slightly during the past 25 years.





Thanks for sticking around.

[jarredthealien]

Just found this thread! You've been at this for quite some time and I have to say, your research is incredible! I've noticed the differences between Kurt's and the production models as well. I just recently threw a plain white pickguard on my Jag-Stang for it to look like Kurt's.

What I'm trying to find out is, Kurt's Fiesta Red Jag-Stang, was it still the prototype body or was it what is now the production model? I believe it is at the Fender facility in Scottsdale, Arizona. Which should only be about a 25 minute drive from my apartment. Not sure if I could go see it up close though. Figured maybe you looked at some pictures of it and analyzed it as well.


Also, if for any reason you'd like to see my Jag-Stang for any details or anything at all, let me know! I'll post pictures of whatever you're interested in seeing.

[AcrylicSuperman]

Just found this thread! You've been at this for quite some time and I have to say, your research is incredible! I've noticed the differences between Kurt's and the production models as well. I just recently threw a plain white pickguard on my Jag-Stang for it to look like Kurt's.

What I'm trying to find out is, Kurt's Fiesta Red Jag-Stang, was it still the prototype body or was it what is now the production model? I believe it is at the Fender facility in Scottsdale, Arizona. Which should only be about a 25 minute drive from my apartment. Not sure if I could go see it up close though. Figured maybe you looked at some pictures of it and analyzed it as well.


Also, if for any reason you'd like to see my Jag-Stang for any details or anything at all, let me know! I'll post pictures of whatever you're interested in seeing.

The fiesta red, which is actually more a dakota red, is the shape that the production models were based on, though the production models were not an exact copy of the red prototype either. The blue and the red prototypes are definitely 2 different shapes.

You would be correct about it being in Scottsdale. It was bought by a private collector and also Fender employee. I got a chance to see it. Lighting wasn't super great for photos but it got the job done. I don't know if they'll take walk ins or not but if you are 25 miles away, 50 miles round trip would be worth it to try. If they say no, ask them if you can make an appointment.

There are pics of the red one in the later portions of this thread. You may be able to get some details off it if interested.

[jarredthealien]

Okay, I found it! Thank you for the reply! Comparing the Red-Proto and my own, I can see some small differences. Mainly with how much more oblong the butt is on the prototype. Which I really like. I'll try to call Fender on Monday and see if they'll have me. I know Kurt never got to see it or play it, but it would still be neat to see something that was his design and was about to ship to him. Hopefully I can snag some photos of my own!

Do you plan on fully building the prototype?

[AcrylicSuperman]

Okay, I found it! Thank you for the reply! Comparing the Red-Proto and my own, I can see some small differences. Mainly with how much more oblong the butt is on the prototype. Which I really like. I'll try to call Fender on Monday and see if they'll have me. I know Kurt never got to see it or play it, but it would still be neat to see something that was his design and was about to ship to him. Hopefully I can snag some photos of my own!

Do you plan on fully building the prototype?

I intend to build both eventually. To be honest, I don't want to build either one with Kurt's modifications. I am more fascinated about the way Fender delivered the blue one to Kurt and the way that Fender would have delivered the red one to Kurt. With the blue one, it was already heavily modified by the time the public ever heard it. But nobody has ever really heard the prototypes the way Fender built them and I'd like to compare them for the very first time.

If you manage to snap any pictures of it. Feel free to post them here. It may reveal more than we already know.

[Amon 7.L]

@jarredthealien

Hi there!
Thanks for your kind words and welcome on board!

Okay, I found it! Thank you for the reply! Comparing the Red-Proto and my own, I can see some small differences. Mainly with how much more oblong the butt is on the prototype. Which I really like. I'll try to call Fender on Monday and see if they'll have me. I know Kurt never got to see it or play it, but it would still be neat to see something that was his design and was about to ship to him. Hopefully I can snag some photos of my own!

Do you plan on fully building the prototype?

If you were talking to me about the build, for the time being I still have to finish the one I've posted earlier on the very first pages, but it will still retain some personal twists, so it's not gonna be a completely 1:1 replica.

For what concerns the two prototypes and production model: they are 3 different shapes.

Moreover, if we want to be accurate, there have been at least 4 in the process of its development since inception:
An unknown shaped "Version 1" crude body Larry built and to which Kurt has made the notes for the build of what we might call "Version 2" (the blue prototype) then the Red one followed with its further modifications and ultimately: yet another reworked shaped for what has turned into the production model.

I didn't go full OCD mode retro engineering the red prototype as I was focused on the blue one but I among the notes I've taken during the process there's some that might be interesting for you.

I can tell you that the main differences between the Red Prototype and the Production model are ESSENTIALLY the horns, the shape of the pickguard and a few tiny quirks.
The butt is not much more oblong though, it's eventually the same.
(Never never never underestimate perspective: the distortion power is very strong with this one.)

Using the photos AcrylicSuperman took, I managed to make a study about it, there you have it:



Yeah, I know... I need treatment but, once my eyes spot some anomaly, OCD kicks in:



This last one was an "only for myself quick check" overlay I did ages ago, I do apologise for the poor graphic, I hope you can take my word on it, even thou it looks bad, the overlapping of the straightest pic of the red prototype and a uber hi-res red lefty '96 MIJ counterpart has been done by matching the spacing of the frets, all the hardware also matches 100%
(Note: red prototype's neck looks smaller only because I used the quick Photoshop tool to remove the background which, along with it, has also erased a bit off the neck as well. Apart from that, nothing else has been mangled).



I hope this is of any help for you.
Of course, if you manage to take any straighter pictures off the Red one, we will have a better insight.
You can definitely guide us with the comparison with your own jag-stang if you notice any quirks we haven't spot or wrongly perceived.

[jarredthealien]

That is an incredible comparison! This whole thread is blowing my mind! I wish I had found it sooner! I did happen to find a REALLY good picture of Kurt playing his Jag-Stang, that I haven't seen posted here. Though I haven't yet gone through all the pages, so I apologise if it's already been submitted. I'll post it below, along with some of mine! Again, feel free to request any pictures!

http://imgur.com/gallery/uMPAlHC


My Jag-Stang:


http://imgur.com/gallery/4yFSbxu



I'm hoping these links work. I'm somewhat new to this site and am on mobile. So I'm trying to figure this out as I go.

[AcrylicSuperman]

My Jag-Stang:

http://imgur.com/gallery/4yFSbxu

Your jagstang looks good! I wish more people would utilize the white pickguard. I think it just gives it that classic 50s vibe. I think it would look great on the red too.

[jarredthealien]

Thank you!!! I would love to see it on a red one! I bet it would look really nice! The color combination with the blue reminds me of tooth paste. Or an old Tele. Haha

[Amon 7.L]

My Jag-Stang:

http://imgur.com/gallery/4yFSbxu

Your jagstang looks good! I wish more people would utilize the white pickguard. I think it just gives it that classic 50s vibe. I think it would look great on the red too.

@jarredthealien
Thanks for the picture, we had it previously in the thread but it went missing, nice to have it restored.
Your jagstang is so incredibly clean looking, White guards are simply perfect with that colour.
The only thing I can't stand is the wrongly shaped pickguard, how could they have it fuck it up at such level is beyond me.

Because you were curious about a white-guarded red, there you have it (with a fixed-shaped lower horn):















A bit of a suspense before proceeding...








I might have one last bit for ya'll...








Perhaps the cleanest, meanest, hi-res close-up of the actual colour off the real deal.
Lo and Behold:


I kinda have the impression we won the lottery... innit?

[stitch]

You'll have to probably wait for Amon to reply in regards to these questions. I'm primarily research.

But I can tell you that we have no internal photos of the jagstang prototypes routing. However, we do have the depths for the pickup routes. According to some former master builders, they were using specific tolerances with their cnc machine and they can be found in this thread. Over all, it is essentially a slightly modified mustang route. No additional routing was done internally in the time Cobain owned it. Can't speak for Buck. I don't know if any of that helped or not, but it is the best I can offer at the moment.

Darn, any drawings of Amon's internals would be appreciated. As I said I tried drawing over one of the images but it didn't line up right and so I scrapped it. I did find Mustang internals but I'm not sure if any trouble was encountered and would like to get it right the first time around as I do not have a pin-router to use.

So, you're trying to reverse engineer my reverse engineering without considering the main problem that causes all the issues: perspective.
What can I say if not: Welcome to my personal Hell.

As AcrylicSuperman already stated, we don't have any internal shot of the inner routes.

I'm not home at the moment but all the information we could provide is gathered in this very thread.
Each step is documented and numbers are given. I know it’s pretty lengthy but it might be worth of your time, if you have the patience to get through it.

The neck I’ve built is custom, standard USA heel-sized (55.56mm) and the profile is just carved by feel, whilst a standard MG 69 RI’s heel is slightly larger (mine measures 56.88mm) and it has a C profile, according to Fender Japan.

For what concerns the inner routes: don’t stress yourself too much, you have already found the Mustang internals, it's just what I've used as layout with the addiction of the HB, so you're already good to go.
As with any build, tests and eventual tweaks are necessary, so be prepared.

If I/we were to describe all the background and behind the scene work, this thread would be 200 pages long, to say the least.

I did read through all of this, I just didn't see that info and wondered. I'll try using a Mustang routing sometime, as I don't have the money to buy all the materials and tools I need to make one of these, although I dearly want to. Thanks for documenting this history.

[AcrylicSuperman]

I wanted to update this thread for all of you.

So as you know, I personally wanted to find the truth behind these instruments. There is a ton of misinformation out there on this instrument. We went out of our way to piece this instrument together using all available information and attempt to prove, disprove and debunk. I can finally do that.

I managed to reach out to Larry Brooks. He was kind enough to allow me to have a phone interview with him. I found Larry to be incredibly helpful. At first, I had questions regarding him due to answers in interviews. After speaking with him, I'm really sorry that there were any doubts to begin with. It became perfectly clear that he quit talking about this guitar because of the rumors and misrepresentation in interviews. While I'm not going to talk about everything we discussed here, because not all of it was Jagstang related, I will tell you about these guitars. I also want to make it perfectly clear that Larry still has plenty of documentation on this guitar. In fact, he sent me a picture of him holding Blue when he completed it, which actually allowed us to get a better idea of the actual body shape for the first time. I am unwilling to share this photo here because I never got his permission to share it. He initially didn't like the thought of sending me the photo to begin with.

First, I had to ask him about the internet legend of Kurt having a neck cloned. This turned out to be half true. I asked him if Kurt sent either his Mustang or Jaguar neck. Larry stated that Kurt never sent a neck in to be cloned because they were in the process of recording In Utero. Kurt did hand Larry the 69 Competition and stated that he would like a neck like that. While Larry couldn't take the neck with him, Larry did have a 69 Competition of his own at the time and he cloned his own neck for these prototypes. Which leads me to my next point: Scott Zimmerman. Scott claims that he made the necks. While I find Scott credible in most things as he gave us verifiable shipping dates for the Mustangs and even confirmed details about them, I no not believe that he made the necks for the prototypes. If he did make any necks for the jagstang, I believe that he built a couple for prototypes of the production model if he made the necks at all.

I asked Larry what Kurt's plans were for the Jagstang. Essentially, Kurt wanted to make a signature model out of it, however, he didn't really want to capitalize on it. His intent was to build an affordable, low price point instrument to his personal specs that even a beginner could afford and enjoy. Kurt specifically requested no contours on the body and initially asked for a small headstock. He wanted these guitars to be finished in the original 64 Mustang colors, meaning that had a third prototype been produced, it would have been white. Had Kurt lived, the Jagstang may have ended up as a Squier model. Kurt wasn't worried about the wood used either. The fact it was made of Alder was a decision on Larry's part.

Larry informed me that Kurt took polaroids of both the mustang and jaguar but they were both taken at different distances, so he had to try to make a design that made sense based on those photos. The first body that was made, which Amon and I tend to call pre prototype body or PPB, was basically the blue jagstang as we know it. The back end was left to Kurt to shape how he wanted, which was done in black sharpie. Kurt's only note of change was he wanted the mustang horn a little longer, which forced Larry to build another body. But initially PPB was the guitar we all know. It merely spent some time being shaped and worked on so that it balanced correctly. Once balance was achieved, a template was made for the CNC machine. There was a video from Anderton's tour of the shop posted recently, and you can see the templates and the machine. Where this Jagstang template is now, we don't know. He did state that he was sent a fax of kurt's design as well, which I found interesting because we have all seen it in color, but Larry got to see it in black and white. Below is a pic of the actual fax.



I asked him about the colors, and Larry did confirm that the blue one was Daphne Blue and the red one was Dakota Red. So where Sonic Blue and Fiesta Red came from is hard to say. My guess is that these colors were speculated because of Kurt's Mustangs in those colors, even though Kurt's red mustangs were actually a custom red. Because Scott's necks were debunked as the Jagstang necks, our theory on the blue being polyurethane was no longer potentially viable, so I asked about the clear and both were nitro. So A+ on us being right about Red.

I asked him about the wiring and he confirmed that they were both stock Mustang wiring.

I asked about the back of the guitar, if there was anything the public couldn't see. He confirmed that there was nothing on the back of the headstock and that the neck plate was blank. We actually already confirmed this, but it was nice to know for sure since it is an area you dont get to see. He also stated there was nothing hidden under the pickguard. Just standard mustang routing with the addition of the humbucker route.

I then discovered something that was contradictory to Earnie Bailey and I am not sure I would have believed this had Larry not sent the picture that proved it. Earnie claimed that the guitar had a DiMarzio H8 in it that he swapped for a JB. Well, Larry proved that the H8 wasn't the humbucker it came with. He claimed that the guitar had a custom pickup made at Seymour Duncan. This pickup was based around the 59 model. Now, I'll admit, I'm working on asking SD for answers, but having said that, the picture of the guitar sent to me showed that there was a white Seymour Duncan with a silver logo in it at the custom shop. This information was interesting for many reasons, but early on, Amon and I discussed that his Jagstang was brighter than what we thought a JB should sound like and it would turn out to be because it wasn't a JB at all. The JB likely was never put into the guitar. While that is speculation on my part, I can no longer really believe Earnie's claim that this occurred.

I asked him about the cardboard cut outs and shockingly, he wasn't aware of these. He never saw them. He said that he would look into their origin. My guess is that these were sent to Mark Wittenberg, who is unfortunately no longer with us to confirm.

He also indicated that he didn't really have a hand in the production models of the instrument. However, unrelated, we did discuss that Fender does change the necks on signature models. I bring this up because i believe that the production model neck had nothing to do with Kurt at all.

Having said all this, did Kurt hate the Jagstang? I'm going to say that this myth is debunked. Now knowing what he requested and what was changed, it seems like he was content. Strap locks, bridge, and cutting switch tips off isn't a big deal. All of those things were done to his mustangs too, and he always claimed mustangs were his favorite. I think he liked blue just fine. I think he would have liked red more.

Two small things I want to add before going to bed. The finish was thin. In the picture i recieved, you could visibly see the outline of the decal on the headstock.

Now, the fun part. If you actually read this long post, I was given the name of a man who is turning the Cobain home into a museum. Not only is he replicating the home as it was, but the museum will feature a lot of cool cobain stuff. Larry donated a spec sheet and the pickup spec sheet to him. The museum is expected to open in September. Of course, the virus may have other plans. Having said that, I am going to try to contact this guy before then. However, if I can't, I still have your back. I lived in Washington all my life until 4 years ago. I still have family and friends there and a friend has agreed to get photos of them if I cant get it earlier. So for now, be patient. Answers are coming. We just have to be patient about it.

[Rgand]

Thanks for the update. Good information, there. Cool bit about the museum.