Piezo at nut & behind the bridge pick-up queries/help wanted

[MJG]

So, I'm currently giving serious consideration to acquiring a VMJM or CIJ JM (if my budget will stretch) to use as a modding platform for the following:

- Behind the bridge pick-up. Whilst not a 'regular' mod, I know board members have performed this before. I plan to change the stock pick ups with SJM-2 (I have a spare set) & I was wondering if anyone had an opinion as to a complimentary pickup. I plan to give the btb pickup its own volume (independent of the master circuit - I'll probably do away with the rhythm circuit), is there any advantage to giving it an independent tone too? Any other factors?

- Much less common (& even less 'regular'), I plan to install a piezo to pick up the notes behind the fretting hand, similar to Fred Frith's headstock pickup (Zappa apparently had something similar). Currently I use a piezo mandolin pick up which I have mounted in a capo, this then sits on the nut & picks up said notes - not a bad solution but it involves running 2 amps, or an amp with 2 inputs, plus the additional lead required makes the guitar a little unwieldy. What I ideally want to do is either install a pick-up under the nut (I've seen this done) or in the neck pocket between neck & body. Both ideas have issues, the former requires a cable to be run down the neck (ideally inside the neck), the second may pick up more body resonance than behind the fretting hand 'note'.

Both piezo ideas would require a pre-amp to be installed to boost the signal. I'd almost certainly use the rhythm circuit routing to accommodate the pre-amp. Has anyone any experience of this approach or read anything which could be of use - recommend any small pre-amp solutions, anything which could be of use?

I should also mention, I play freely improvised music & noise, so the "why do you want to do that?", "thats gonna sound cr*p" type comments that almost certainly spring to mind for many out there have already been considered & aren't required (thanks). Non-standard sounds is my goal here.

Any suggestions gratefully received.

[beauzooka]

Puisheen @ Mike & Mike's Guitar Bar recently put a goldfoil behind the bridge on a JM. There are some short vids on their tumblr feed so you can hear the "ghost notes".

http://mmguitarbar.tumblr.com

The vids are from around Nov 30th 2013.

[MJG]

Thanks, sounds good with the gold foil btb.

Any other takers?

[HYU]

Hope this is not too late:
Finishing up a guitar w nut piezo for a VIP client that
cited the Frank Zappa guitar as a model.

Sadly, zero info available re that guitar except that in that day, the only piezo option was a barcus-barry “hot spot”, which was round (1” diameter) and would therefore do a bad job “reading” any of the strings except the 2 in the center of the neck.

I ended up using polymer piezo film, which can be cut to the exact shape of the nut, allowing for radically improved string balance.

I also use a special jazzmaster tailpiece w a pickup in it (repaces the trem / allows for amplification of the drone strings.)

Contact me if you need help.

Cheers
Hugh

[marqueemoon]

This guitar is probably my favorite implementation of a piezo. The whole thing is worth a watch. Such a cool looking and sounding guitar.

https://youtu.be/sxY3Nu2emjY?t=303

[Shadoweclipse13]

I like the idea of the nut piezo. For wires, why don't you either route the space where a neck skunk-stripe is and lay 2 flat wires in that channel? If you got some thin, flat, 2-wire speaker cable like this, it might not feel too bad on your hand either.

I also use a special jazzmaster tailpiece w a pickup in it (repaces the trem / allows for amplification of the drone strings.)

This is a really cool idea.

[MJG]

wow, didn't expect this thread to get any love 6 years on! thanks for the suggestions all. Hugh - will PM you.

[postchrist]

i’ve been thinking about this myself - i have this pickup:



on an old archtop of mine - something similar could be a great way to get the sound without permanent modifications. been wanting to try it out but mine is permanently installed in the guitar so thinking about just buying one off ebay or something... but these old archtop pups sound truly great and wouldn’t require any routing to use. just a thought!

[bodhi]

Do you need a preamp for a piezo or how are these wired up? I looked at Ronin guitars that have a "magic" or "resonant" switch to add a piezo to the main guitar output ( https://www.roninguitars.com/faq ), but they say it's completely passive... Anyone have any experience with this, does it work with just a simple toggle switch, are there differences in piezo elements or something? Reading up a bit on contact mics apparently they like don't like line level input impedance but rather something in the 1-10MB range, which I believe at least some guitar pedals and most amps have.

[MJG]

In my limited experience piezos require an active circuit to achieve parity with a standard pickup.
From what i've read, in most instances piezos are either used to approximate an acoustic-type sound (under the bridge) or are used elsewhere around the body for resonance/effects.

What I'd love to be able to achieve is getting close to unity volume/clarity when picking a note behind the fretting hand. Its a technique which is easily achieved on acoustic guitars, but the mechanics of a standard electric guitar does not facilitate.

On the archtop pickup - did you mean behind the bridge, or at the nut? Theres a video of New Complexity guitars with a pickup like this behind the nut, although its just demo'ed for the overtone effect. As its behind the nut its only that short string length being amplified.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYhcb89NvR4