Why no love for the Riviera?

[Despot]

I was thinking of starting this post with a photo of some beach on the Cote D'Azure ... but that would have been too obvious. So instead I'll pose the question asked in the title - why no love for the Epiphone Riviera?

To be specific - the vintage Rivieras?

I know that Sookwinder will probably be on to confirm that he does, indeed, have love for the Riviera (and he does), but ... how are these guitars so underpriced?

A quick look on Reverb suggests that you can have a Riviera from '67 or '68 for around 3,300 euro excl shipping from the US. Sheratons from the same time frame run to about 6,000 euro. Outwardly these are very similar - a pair of mini-humbuckers with a trapeze tailpiece (or frequensator sometimes too) or occasional Epiphone trem on Sheratons. Granted the Sheraton is a fancier upscale version (like the ES355) ... but unlike the ES355 it doesn't have stereo wiring or a varitone to somehow justify the increased cost. Now ... don't get me wrong ... I love Sheratons - in fact I could still end up with an old ES355 or Sheraton in the 'final guitar' haul in exchange for the '62 ES345 - but I'm struggling to understand the price difference.

My first ES type guitar was a Korean made Sheraton II from around 2002 - it was a wonderful guitar ... it took a long time for me to find a Gibson that was it's equal (once I'd gutted the electronics and put in some decent humbuckers, pots and wiring at least). I'm curiosly circling old Epiphones at the moment ... if I can find one that's the equal of the old ES345 then that's on the block.

[jimboyogi]

Shhhhhh Kevin!

[jimboyogi]

At least until I snag one

[Despot]

Yeah. There's that for sure James.

I think a lot of it is from the Epiphone association - and the fact that they look like a weird Casino to the uninitiated. Sheratons look regal in all their pomp and finery ... but Rivieras look a little understated. However, I do think that in that ice tea sort of burst that you get from faded cherry they look stunning.

Both Sheratons and Rivieras represent a very decent price cut over their equivalent Gibson models from the same years. I know that ES335s have become iconic ... perhaps the Riviera, with it's 'weird' headstock shape can seem a little off brand to those who idealise the ES335. I must admit that a lot of the reason why I love 355s is because of that ebony block board and that split diamond headstock - so looks do matter.

[Larry Mal]

It isn't love I'm lacking when it comes to owning a vintage Riviera.

[MrFingers]

I very much love them, but the right ones (frequensator + minihums) are difficult to find outside of the vintage market.

[Ursa Minor]

Bumping this one. I've recently become a little smitten by these old Rivieras. Suprised this thread wasn't longer.

Anyone have experience with vintage Rivs or possibility point me in the right direction? I'm in the process of learning all I can at the moment. They seem pretty ideal to me for an ES style guitar.

[jimboyogi]

Paging Sookwinder...

[Ursa Minor]

Paging Sookwinder...

Yep. Working my way through the wealth of his posts at the moment.

[sookwinder]

Guys, currently sitting in a Chinese car production engineering management meeting room. Sometimes the Chinese interwebz police lets me view OSG... sometimes not. I cannot see google or youtube.

When I get back I will write a little

Going to visit a Chinese guitar factory tomorrow...

[zhivago]

It's the Epiphone name, in my opinion....which as a Greek saddens me. They used to be a Gibson equal in the archtop field, back in the day.

IMO, Gibson ruined the Epiphone name twice...once when they bought them the first time around (and made them a line for dealers in towns where there was a Gibson dealership already), and then when they made it a budget name the second time around.


Personally, I find them to be beautiful guitars. I especially like the look of the early archtops, but if we are talking thinlines then I wouldn't mind an old Sheraton or Riviera.

[øøøøøøø]

I was thinking of starting this post with a photo of some beach on the Cote D'Azure ... but that would have been too obvious. So instead I'll pose the question asked in the title - why no love for the Epiphone Riviera?

To be specific - the vintage Rivieras?

I know that Sookwinder will probably be on to confirm that he does, indeed, have love for the Riviera (and he does), but ... how are these guitars so underpriced?

A quick look on Reverb suggests that you can have a Riviera from '67 or '68 for around 3,300 euro excl shipping from the US. Sheratons from the same time frame run to about 6,000 euro. Outwardly these are very similar - a pair of mini-humbuckers with a trapeze tailpiece (or frequensator sometimes too) or occasional Epiphone trem on Sheratons. Granted the Sheraton is a fancier upscale version (like the ES355) ... but unlike the ES355 it doesn't have stereo wiring or a varitone to somehow justify the increased cost. Now ... don't get me wrong ... I love Sheratons - in fact I could still end up with an old ES355 or Sheraton in the 'final guitar' haul in exchange for the '62 ES345 - but I'm struggling to understand the price difference.

My first ES type guitar was a Korean made Sheraton II from around 2002 - it was a wonderful guitar ... it took a long time for me to find a Gibson that was it's equal (once I'd gutted the electronics and put in some decent humbuckers, pots and wiring at least). I'm curiosly circling old Epiphones at the moment ... if I can find one that's the equal of the old ES345 then that's on the block.

As for the Riviera-- I had a '67 for a good long while. I ended up selling it on to fund a (IMO) much cooler Epiphone; a '62 Sorrento with "Royal Olive" finish and the best-sounding set of Patent-Applied-For mini-humbuckers I've yet encountered.

The Riviera is a cool guitar. Yes, perhaps a touch under-valued relative to others. But you may notice that earlier examples ('61 to '65) command substantially more money. That's because they're substantially better guitars than my '67 was, in almost every case.

It's not just the nut width-- my '67s ultra-skinny neck (1.5" at the nut was perhaps even being generous) never bothered me much... though I understand it's a deal-breaker for the majority of players (in truth, this is probably the biggest factor influencing the lower selling prices).

The patent-number mini-humbuckers didn't sing in quite the same way. The chrome hardware wasn't quite as pretty as the earlier nickel. Basically... late '60s Epiphones went downhill in all the same ways as late '60s Gibsons did. People like to fix the '69 Norlin buyout date as the time when it all went to shit at G, but I actually place it somewhat earlier, around '66, when Ted McCarty left. Things sort of held on for a few years after that, but... the changes that were occurring haven't aged well.

All that said... for the $1800 I paid (in 2007), mine was fantastic. And when I sold it on for $3300, a refret later it was still a decent value for that money (for someone). It was a fine guitar. I rarely miss it. Though I would like a '63 or so Riviera someday!

--

Now that the larger question has been answered, I'll hit on something else: IME, stereo and varitone are not considered bonuses or assets to most players. I know I certainly don't want to have to have a special cable just to be able to use both pickups, nor do I have any interest in sending each pickup to its own amplifier (or even its own channel on an amplifier). And the varitone, while fun to mess with, is not ultimately worth the substantial added weight, to me. Simple and immediate is nice. if I had an ES-355, it would be rewired to mono on the first day.

So the lack of those "features" is kind of a bonus for me, on the Sheraton, and I don't think I'm alone. So there's that.

[sookwinder]

Still in China on business.... access to OSG is in stops and starts....

here are two examples of the guitars Brad was discussing. Both with wider nuts 42.5 - 43.5mm, both with awesome mHBs.
Hopefully I will be back in the land of the living (and interwebz access) on Thursday/Friday

my 61 Sorrento


my 65 Riviera

[Despot]

I guess a lot has happened since I first started this thread in May!

Since then the ES345 that I mentioned has been sold (well ... it's in the process of being sold, as it's on consignment). The main reason for that is the '63 Firebird. In no way is the Firebird the same type of guitar as a Riviera or ES345 ... but the sound of those FB pickup really works for me. I still think it's the nicest sounding old Gibson I've played.

That being said, if I'm going to round out the guitar horde there should really be an old ES or Epiphone in there. The reissue ES345 that I'm using right now is superb though ... and that has sort of killed the GAS for an old Epiphone.

ES355s though... well. I keep eyeing up that '67 ES355 that's for sale in France for a pretty decent price - not the cheapest '67 I've seen go on reverb, but within a few hundred euro.

[garyfanclub]

I’ve got to admit, I’d love an old Riviera, skinny neck and all. But there’s no way I’d ever pay the ridiciulous prices they’re being listed at these days — $4k for a late 60s Epiphone?!

I’m on the prowl for a cheap Silvertone 1446 or Starfire V; will scratch the mini-hum itch and still leave me some dough to pay rent.

Wish they still made the somewhat vintage accurate Elitist Rivieras, I had one about ten years ago and still regret selling it. Been waiting for one of those to pop up on Reverb for years now, but no dice.