What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

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Re: What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

Post by noisepunk » Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:17 am

i can't attest to accuracy, because i don't make '59 tweed money and have maybe been in the same room as one twice (if at all), but my wife's main distortion pedal is a wampler '59 tweed, and it definitely makes her fender pa100 sound like a totally different amp. i don't think wampler does a vox pedal, but i imagine someone must, and imagine it would get you close enough that the "this is a pedal–it weights almost nothing and takes less than a second to turn on"-benefit would out-weigh it never actually being a different amp.

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Re: What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

Post by Jaguar018 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:14 am

I bet this could be achieved with a Kemper. :ph34r:

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Re: What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

Post by Larsongs » Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:29 pm

Digital Modelling Amps with their ability to model sound pretty good at low volumes.. But, as the volume increases so does the harshness of the digital Sound.. In a Rock Band at Club volume levels they are often annoying sounding… That said, a lot has to do with the inability to dial in the best Sound… Which is much less of a problem with a high quality Tube Amp..

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Re: What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

Post by CorporateDisguise » Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:50 am

I’ve had the Rebel 30 for a few years. Picked it up when guitar center was blowing them out for 299. Ultimately, I was disappointed. I like the clean channel well enough, butI really dislike the dirt channel. It’s based on a Marshall 800 I think, but is eq’d a bit darker. It just has this inherent tubbyness that I can’t dial out. It also goes from not enough gain, to way to much gain really quickly.

Another thing I disliked( and this one isn’t the amps fault, just the nature of tubes) is there is really very little tonal difference between the to tube types until you really crank the power section. Then and only then do their differences become apparent. The 6v6s having a bit more bass and treble. And a softer, semi mushy bass response. And the el84s having a tighter low end, and a great high mid spike.

The clean channel does sound great cranked. But again I have a hard time dialing in the dirty channel, because it ws ultimately designed for preamp gain.

Overall it is a fun amp, and I run it as a backup. I’ll pull it out when I’m recording sometimes too, just for a different flavor. But mostly it just sits around.....

You should also be aware that they aren’t always the most reliable either. While my Rebel 30 has been rock solid, I also have the Renegade, and it has blown its transformer twice......

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Re: What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

Post by Larsongs » Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:33 am

Their are some USA Boutique Builders making these types of Amps.. With EL84’s & 6V6’s.. Divided by 13 & others but they’re pricey.. $2500.00 +/-. I would hope they sound better & are more reliable..

Seems like an Amp with both Vox & Fender Sound would need 2 X12’s. One a Celestion Alnico Blue & the other a good Jensen. Each playing when their respective circuit is dialed in. And two Circuits for each of the different types of Tubes.

It doesn’t seem impossible for a Combo…

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Re: What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

Post by Dr Tony Balls » Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:27 am

Larsongs wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:33 am
Seems like an Amp with both Vox & Fender Sound would need 2 X12’s. One a Celestion Alnico Blue & the other a good Jensen. Each playing when their respective circuit is dialed in. And two Circuits for each of the different types of Tubes.

It doesn’t seem impossible for a Combo…
And two separate output transformers, one for each side so that you can run them properly (as I noted before). And then you basically have two amps in one box. It wouldnt be hard to do but it's not really any more convenient than the two amps you have now.
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Re: What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

Post by Larsongs » Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:54 pm

Dr Tony Balls wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:27 am
Larsongs wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:33 am
Seems like an Amp with both Vox & Fender Sound would need 2 X12’s. One a Celestion Alnico Blue & the other a good Jensen. Each playing when their respective circuit is dialed in. And two Circuits for each of the different types of Tubes.

It doesn’t seem impossible for a Combo…
And two separate output transformers, one for each side so that you can run them properly (as I noted before). And then you basically have two amps in one box. It wouldnt be hard to do but it's not really any more convenient than the two amps you have now.
With all we know in 2021 it seems like it should be possible to build a lightweight 15-22 Watt DRRI size Vox/Fender sounding Stereo Combo Amp with 2 X10 Neo Spkrs, a smart 6V6, EL84 Tube Chassis, with Reverb, Trem, 2 Channels, Blend Control that could do the job for about $1000.00..

It’s odd there isn’t a demand for something that versatile?

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Re: What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

Post by Sauerkraut » Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:36 am

Dr Tony Balls wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:12 am
Larsongs wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:13 am
Dr Tony Balls wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:05 am


I think you'll find that there's a LOT more to a Vox sound or a Fender sound than the output tubes.
Good topic for discussion..

Speakers for sure.. In addition to Tubes & Speaker what else plays a big factor in each of their Sounds? Vox has a separate Gain or Top Boost.. But, what else?

Keep in mind I’m talking smaller Combo Amps like AC15 & DRRI... 15-22 Watts with Reverb...
I think you'll find that output tube type makes a very minor impact (possibly the least?) of the major players on the list. Here's what i'd consider the major differences between a Fender Deluxe Reverb and Vox AC-style (ignoring reverb and trem):

1) Speaker. HUGE impacts to the sound.

2)Negative Feedback. Vox amps have none and a DR has a ton. Including negative feedback decreases distortion, especially early on the volume dial.

3) Bias. DR has fixed bias, Vox AC15 and AC30 have cathode bias. Fixed tends to be more firm and crisp sounding, cathode bias is a little more compressed.

4) Phase inverter gain. Vox has more.

5) Preamp. This varies a lot because there are many Vox AC style preamps but a Top-Boost style will be brighter and have more gain than one on a DR.

6) Output tubes

Of course you could always buy a set of Yellow Jackets and plop some EL84s into a DR and see about the sonic difference You'll notice something but it wont be like playing out of a Vox.
You forgot to mention the tone stack, which directly affects the frequency response. I believe it’s the main factor in why “blackface” fender amps have that pronounced mid-scoop, for example. I've messed about with tone stacks (and the gain stage) in an AB763 Fender circuit a bunch, and you can easily get a more Vox/Marshall-like, middier tone out of them. Even then, as you mention, it won't sound like playing out of a Vox, but I find it makes the amp a lot more versatile and useful (and Vox-y enough for my taste).

I think this is worth considering for the OP: I believe that an amp with two (significantly) differently voiced channels (different tone stack values, gain stage values) but the same output tubes will offer more versatility/different tones than an amp with one channel and two options for output tubes.
Edit: I see the OP already has two differently voiced channels in mind. Why there isn't a demand for what you have in mind? I'm guessing because most people would find themselves preferring one channel over the other anyway and forgetting the other one even exists. Plus, I suppose a two-in-one amp like you have in mind, with different channels and output tubes, would always be considerably more expensive to build. I imagine handling the different plate voltages for the different output stages requiring some costly parts and extra work/wiring (but I'm just speculating, of course), so the higher cost would dampen the demand.
Another way of looking at it: A friend of mine spent part of the pandemic testing all kinds of amps with every type of output and preamp tube under the sun. In the end, he figured out what amp he likes best and returned or sold the others. I think that, like him, a lot of people prefer to eliminate choice. They want to figure out what they like best and be done with it. You know, the 'burden of choice'. I'm not saying that's a better or worse attitude than wanting more versatility, but perhaps that factors in to why a lot of amps aren't that versatile?

And I couldn't agree more on speakers. The importance of speakers just can not be overstated. I have a little 1x8" 5-watt amp (Silvertone 14-something) that I can connect an external cab to. It sounds pretty good as is, but it sounds much, much better/fuller/bigger when run through a 10" speaker with a proper little cab. And that's just due to the speaker/magnet size and housing. If I tried different brands and types of 10"s, I'd get lots of different results.

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Re: What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

Post by Larsongs » Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:38 am

I’ve been thru process of elimination over the years with Amps.. I play Music from many Eras & many different Genres… Much of it is Fender sound, much of it is Vox sound. Not much Marshall or others…..

If you’re a musician that only plays one genre or one style one Amp is fine.. But, if you have to play all kinds of stuff & want the right sound you need the right Amps… IMO.. Hence the thought behind this Thread..

2 channels, reverb, Tremelo, 2 speakers isn’t hard.. A Vox Blue Spkr for Channel 1 & a great vintage type Jensen (Probably Weber) Spkr for channel 2. That’s easy. An A/B channel knob with blend is doable. Utilizing EL84’s & 6v6’s is obviously doable.. Except for 2 speakers it’s already being done for reasonable prices..

The chassis being 2 in 1 doesn’t seem impossible.. And if really thought out by Amp guys can’t be that big of a big deal either..

I gotta think an Amp like this for guys that play all kinds of music & genres would be very desirable…..

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Re: What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

Post by Dr Tony Balls » Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:07 am

Larsongs wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:38 am
The chassis being 2 in 1 doesn’t seem impossible..
It's not at all....
Larsongs wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:54 pm
could do the job for about $1000.00..
But that is.
Larsongs wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:38 am
2 channels, reverb, Tremelo, 2 speakers isn’t hard..
No, but it adds extra complications especially when youre talking about blending them. What side has tremolo? What side has reverb? Blending two tremolo signals is goofy as hell. Two reverb tanks takes up a lot of real estate.

I could build you this amp tomorrow but it's not gonna be $1000 and its not gonna satisfy one of your original posts (emphasis mine):

Larsongs wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:43 am
I'd love to be able to haul 1 Guitar & 1 smaller 15-22 Watt Combo Amp
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Re: What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

Post by Larsongs » Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:39 am

Dr Tony Balls wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:07 am
Larsongs wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:38 am
The chassis being 2 in 1 doesn’t seem impossible..
It's not at all....
Larsongs wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:54 pm
could do the job for about $1000.00..
But that is.
Larsongs wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:38 am
2 channels, reverb, Tremelo, 2 speakers isn’t hard..
No, but it adds extra complications especially when youre talking about blending them. What side has tremolo? What side has reverb? Blending two tremolo signals is goofy as hell. Two reverb tanks takes up a lot of real estate.

I could build you this amp tomorrow but it's not gonna be $1000 and its not gonna satisfy one of your original posts (emphasis mine):

Larsongs wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:43 am
I'd love to be able to haul 1 Guitar & 1 smaller 15-22 Watt Combo Amp
If they’re MIC $1000.00 it’s possible.. If made in USA probably $1500.00-$2000.00 should be doable with good profit for builder & vendor… There are no parts that don’t already exist in bulk… They shouldn’t cost a fortune. No new Scientific Inventions need to be R&D’d costing $Billlions! You just need to think outside the box!

Currently the Fender 68 Custom Deluxe Reverb has two channels. Each has Reverb & Tremelo.. And, the two channels can be jumped together & played simultaneously with Reverb & Tremelo with a cord…. They’re a great Amp.. If I didn’t want a Vox sound I’d already have one.. I’d sell my 65 DRRI in a minute for one of them & still might anyway.. I’d still want a DRRI in my toolbox…

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Re: What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

Post by Dr Tony Balls » Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:28 am

It's MAYBE possible but if it costs $1000 its gonna be made pretty poorly. Keep in mind what you're talking about needs two speakers, and two output transformers, plus tubes, control, etc. The Fender that you mention is also a completely different bird than what you've requested as it's just a two channel amp. What needs to be done to satisfy and true Vox and a true Fender circuit in one box is not a two channel amp its two WHOLE amps in one box. The only thing you can really share is a chassis and power transformer.

I'm perfectly capable of thinking far outside of the box but you may want to reread a lot of the information I already posted. There are many traits in a Vox circuit and a Fender circuit that simply cannot be shared in a single amp, as i've noted. These are the limitations that you're dealing with.
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Re: What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

Post by Larsongs » Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:40 am

Dr Tony Balls wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:28 am
It's MAYBE possible but if it costs $1000 its gonna be made pretty poorly. Keep in mind what you're talking about needs two speakers, and two output transformers, plus tubes, control, etc. The Fender that you mention is also a completely different bird than what you've requested as it's just a two channel amp. What needs to be done to satisfy and true Vox and a true Fender circuit in one box is not a two channel amp its two WHOLE amps in one box. The only thing you can really share is a chassis and power transformer.

I'm perfectly capable of thinking far outside of the box but you may want to reread a lot of the information I already posted. There are many traits in a Vox circuit and a Fender circuit that simply cannot be shared in a single amp, as i've noted. These are the limitations that you're dealing with.
Yet you state other things you say can't be done but are.... LIke Reverb & Tremelo can't be combined on 2 channel Amps... but, can..

Egnater Rebel 30 is very close to the design to my request... MIC, not so great Reviews, but under $1000.... Works for some people though.. It's definitely doable.. Might take some brains though...

I realize the Chassis would have to designed with some differences... Are there no more smart people who could come up with an intelligent, cost effective way to do this?? Leo Fender was a genius at doing that exact thing!!! I hope we're not at that point!!!

Yes it would need 2 Speakers.. You could put 2 X 10's instead of 12's.... You could even use some great Neo Light weight speakers to reduce weight. Still, There are guys who put 2 X 12's in Deluxe Reverbs..

Actually if you think it's impossible I'd argue that you're really not thinking outside of the box on this... But, I do appreciate the input...

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Re: What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

Post by Dr Tony Balls » Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:16 pm

Larsongs wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:40 am
Yet you state other things you say can't be done but are.... LIke Reverb & Tremelo can't be combined on 2 channel Amps... but, can..
I never said that. I said that blending two tremolo signals is goofy and that two reverb tanks would be huge. You have to pick which side you want to have the effects and which not.

Larsongs wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:40 am
Egnater Rebel 30 is very close to the design to my request... MIC, not so great Reviews, but under $1000.... Works for some people though.. It's definitely doable.. Might take some brains though...
Its very close to your original request which is an amp that has both output tubes. As I noted many times over thats not the entirety or even the majority of what makes something sound like an AC30 or a Deluxe Reverb.

Larsongs wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:40 am
Actually if you think it's impossible I'd argue that you're really not thinking outside of the box on this... But, I do appreciate the input...
I never said it was impossible but you seem to have inferred that it is. It's fully possible, and as I said if I had the parts here I could do it tomorrow. It would just need to be large and expensive. Could you cut corners? Sure, but you'd be sacrificing the product. There's that old saying bout wanting things done fast, cheap, and good... and you can have all three.
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Re: What Amps have EL84 & 6V6 Tubes..

Post by Larsongs » Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:49 pm

Respectfully, I think it can be done.. The 68 Custom doesn’t require 2 reverb tanks yet you can play Reverb on both Channels simultaneously & it sounds great! Blending them isn’t goofy.. Thinking it is…… is.

I’m not sure that there isn’t a way to do this that requires 2 separate Amps in the Box? A smart guy can probably come up with a work around.. Imagine a smart phone that could only be a phone. That’s how it used to be not that long ago.. But, smart guys can think up all kinds of things & do them really really well..

The Guy to do it needs to think like Leo… Simple but Genius!

I’m going to talk a friend of mine who is an Amp guy with Fender… I didn’t want to bug him.. I thought the gurus here would be more open minded & even think an Amp like this would be desirable??? Shame on me!

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