Downsizing amps

[fuzzjunkie]

I’m contemplating downsizing my 2 stage worthy amps to something more home friendly.

I have a Vox AC-30 and a Fender Tweed Bassman. I love the sound that they get cranked but haven’t taken either past 2-3 on the volume dial for close to a decade, and I haven’t been in a band in 15 years. Still, they’ve been with me forever and I like having them around.

The trouble is I don’t think I can truly replace either one with a smaller amp. These are OG amps with no master volume control.

1) The Vox is a 1993, the first Korg reissue and it has Greenbacks for speakers. I really like the Vox/Marshall hybrid sound I get from it. I can add delay and reverb to it and it gets that Vox chime, or hit it with a certain overdrive for Marshall crunch.

a) I have a Vox AC-4, which is a nice smaller amp but doesn’t do what the AC-30 does. I’m looking at the AC-10, but it’s only the Top Boost channel and I jumper the Normal and Top Boost. I think it’ll just sound like a bigger AC-4 and the digital reverb doesn’t sound like something I’d want. It does have the AC-30 look in a small package though.

b) The other option I am looking at is an AC-15 head. They have built in attenuation and it has both channels, plus spring reverb and tremolo. I could pair it with an extension cabinet fitted with a Blue Alnico and Greenback pair. I’ve seen a few of those available. On its own that setup might not be as loud as the AC-30, but it takes up even more space.

2) The Tweed Bassman. It’s a 1991 reissue so it has a tube rectifier. I think they switched to solid state after that? I like it because it has that Fender sound, but can also get that edge of Marshall territory.

a) There’s more than one Tweed sound and circuit, so getting a Tweed Champ or Deluxe isn’t going to sound the same. Both those circuits are highly prized though.

b) A always liked the Black Panel sound. I can scoop out the mids on the Tweed to approximate that, but I would loose that edge of Marshall tone with a Black Panel amp. That’s less of a concern with keeping the AC-30 or if an AC-15 head does the trick. The Princeton seems like the combo for this over a Champ or Deluxe.

c) I could go the head route here with a Black Panel Deluxe. I think there’s a Princeton head as well, but I don’t think either are currently available? I would pair it with the same Blue Alnico/Greenback cabinet mentioned above. That would save a little space.

3) I could just move both of the larger amps on and rather than trying to replicate/replace that sound, be realistic and concede that small amps are fine and they’ll sound good, just different.

a) Get a Tweed Champ or Black Panel Princeton combo amp, or maybe something boutique like the Allen Chihuahua that covers that same sonic territory.
b) Get the AC-10 and be happy with the Top Boost only sound. I have reverb and tremolo pedals and one of the overdrives could still work for getting Marshall tones out of it.

Anyone else downsize their amps and came to terms with it? Were you happy with the compromise, or wish you had kept the larger ones? If you were happy, did you go smaller combos or did you go for lower power versions of what you had? Or just went for a completely different sound because you’re not 25 anymore and chasing a different tone now?

[JSett]

Sounds like quite the conundrum.

I had an AC15 and it definitely did the AC30 thing but at a less back-breaking weight and ear-destroying volume. I would buy another if I ever felt the urge. As for the Fender, that's probably harder as they all sound slightly different. Probably the best option would be to get a builder to make one to spec but thats often expensive and not necessarily going to make you happy. Is there any way to shoehorn a good Weber attenuator or something into it?

I killed off all my massive tube amps from my collection about 3 years ago (all 100w or above) and my back, ears, and local soundtechs thank me for it. No regrets. Currently running a 67 Bassman that I put a master volume into (discretely at the back) so I've got that Fender vibe with a slight Marshall flavour at a much more manageable volume. It's not quiet enough for home though so I use a VibroChamp

[Surfysonic]

I've had a Fender '59 Bassman LTD (4x10) that I sold to Pat Finnerty (YouTuber) back in 2021. Size and weight were some of the reasons for me to move it on. Another reason was that I could get the same tone (admittedly @ home volume (at most, set on 4?)) from my Fender '62 Princeton Chris Stapleton Edition 1x12 combo. I add reverb when needed (for me, most of the time, heh) I pair it up with my SurfBear Classic outboard reverb unit or one of many reverb pedals (primarily Mr. Black Super Swell Classic Spring Reverb) and it sounds awesome. This Princeton is known for getting loud when needed. I'll try to do a cranked volume test when my wife is out to see if it breaks up like the Bassman and report back as soon as I can.

FWIW, I didn't pay full price on the Fender '62 Princeton Chris Stapleton Edition - deals can be had. Every time I get the itch to get another blonde (brown panel) Bassman, I keep defaulting back to my Princeton. It's a keeper.

Prior to this, I had a '64 Fender Princeton (tuxedo) as well as a '65 Reissue Princeton Reverb. Nothing at all wrong with the Princeton Reverb but I prefer the brown panel Fender amps over the black panel Fender amps because, to me, the brown panel gets much closer to the tweed than the black panel if tweed is what you want. Someone with far more black panel experience may know ways to get you into tweed tones.

That said, I alway have a soft spot for Twin Reverbs, having in the past owned 3 '65 RIs and most recently, a blonde Tone Master. Lately, I've really been missing a 4x10 configuration so I'm considering having a go with a Fender Tone Master Super Reverb (weight considerations, built-in attenuator (or reasonable facsimile of an attenuator), and other attractive modern conveniences over the '65 RI tube version).

The Vox AC-15 head sounds like a winner. I'm quite happy with my Vox AC-15C1-TV combo but it's a heavy beast and I know the AC-30 is heavier. Sounds glorious. Unless their is a specific need for me to play out with it, it's definitely a stay-at-home amp. Good to know about the AC-10 as I considered them a while back. Years ago, I had the 15W Vox Night Train head. Not sure if it's of worthwhile consideration.

For a time, I had the Allen Encore head - basically, a mix of brown panel and black panel features. Solid, really great amp so I'm sure the Chihuahua is a solid choice.

Very interested in what you end up with! Good luck!

[marqueemoon]

I don’t see the point of owning an amp that can’t be run at the volume at which it sounds best.

I don’t have anything bigger than a 1x12 at the moment. I sold my black panel Bassman and 4x10 and don’t regret it.

I’m down to 4 amps. I’m considering consolidating further, but probably will not.

If I ever decide I need to move more air live I might grab one of those Mojotone lite 2x12s with neodymium Creambacks to pair with a head I already have. At my age I don’t feel like lugging a heavy cab around anymore.

[ryland]

I just built a tweed Bassman with a master volume...I don't know that it will get you what you want, but I can get sounds I quite enjoy at TV volumes. It's a pretty easy mod to put in a post phase inverter master volume (two resistors and a potentiometer). You just need a place to put that extra pot.

[stevejamsecono]

Sort of depends what you're hoping to get out of the experience, really. Any amp designed to play loud turned down at home is invariably disappointing for a variety of reasons, not lease of which is FEELING the amp vs. just hearing it.

I think if you can surrender to a new experience, modelers is the way to go. Modern modeling tech seems to do pretty well of getting most of the way there sonically and once you're ok with that you can just focus on playing. I had tube amps at home forever and it never was fun. I got a Yamaha THR10 about a year ago and it's been smooth sailing ever since. Is it the greatest or most accurate sounding thing ever? No, but once I let that be ok I've had tons of fun on it and honestly play much more often now. You could probably get closer with a Kemper or AxeFX or something if you wanted.

[PapaB]

I love my AC30. But it is LOUD!!! Have a Fender clean amp, a George Benson 40 watt and it's also a bit much most of the time.

My sweet spot is 15 watt tube amps. Pick your flavour. An Egnater with a 12" Creamback Tweaker cabinet and any 15 watt head is light, sounds terrific, looks the part, and won't break the bank.

Also worth considering, especially if you have a louder punchier guitar, with HBs, a 5watt Class A Single ended amp. It's more of a vintage tone, continuous clean to dirty with volume .... But it's loud for home or recording purposes. Premium tone. Cheap to maintain too.

[fuzzjunkie]

I don’t think I could ever use a modeling amp. I haven’t tried a Kemper, but I did have Pods and various other simulators and I would rather play a banjo or the bagpipes.

I think the AC-15 head with either a 1x12 or 2x12 would be my preference and I wouldn’t feel like I was sacrificing too much. I’d want a Vox for Vox tones. The Night Train series is too different and high gain for me.

There are head versions of the Princeton and I think I prefer them to either a smaller Champ or larger Deluxe. Allen makes a Princeton based amp head called the Sweet Spot that would make a good substitute for a Fender made amp. I’m not as brand specific about Fender, so a clone would work.

The smaller Fender and Vox combos seem too limiting for what I want, although they’d take up less space.

[JSett]

Are you saying the smaller combos (Princeton and AC15) are too limiting as in how much volume you can have on tap or feature set?

[Dr Tony Balls]

I’m contemplating downsizing my 2 stage worthy amps to something more home friendly.

I have a Vox AC-30 and a Fender Tweed Bassman. I love the sound that they get cranked but haven’t taken either past 2-3 on the volume dial for close to a decade, and I haven’t been in a band in 15 years. Still, they’ve been with me forever and I like having them around.

The trouble is I don’t think I can truly replace either one with a smaller amp. These are OG amps with no master volume control.

Why not? When you get down to it they are pretty similar circuits. I've got a build on the bench right now that's what I call the "VIP" circuit which is kind of a hybrid of the two. Its like an AC-30 but if both channels were "top-boosted" and shared the tone stack like on a Tweed Bassman. Alternately it's like a Bassman if it was cathode biased and you removed the negative feedback. This one is 4xEL84 for ~30W but it could be any output section. It also has a (good) master volume that reacts very well and doesnt compress like crazy like most of them do.

Here's the hurdles, imo, of replacing big amps with small amps:

1) is the preamp the same? an AC4 or an AC10 is not the same as an AC30. Neither is a classic AC15, but i'm not sure about the reissues.

2) you need a push-pull output stage. No champs, AC4s, etc. This kinda limits your power to be at least 10-15 watts which is still very loud, but one can take steps to limit it from there, such as a pentode/triode switch or a master volume.

[fuzzjunkie]

Are you saying the smaller combos (Princeton and AC15) are too limiting as in how much volume you can have on tap or feature set?

No, the Fender Champ and Vox AC-4, AC-10 models have a limited feature set. They have enough volume for playing at home. Not enough for playing live unless mic’d.

The Princeton and AC-15 both have EQ controls and larger speakers that I would want. The AC-15 has 2 channels and not just the Top Boost.

[fuzzjunkie]

I’m contemplating downsizing my 2 stage worthy amps to something more home friendly.

I have a Vox AC-30 and a Fender Tweed Bassman. I love the sound that they get cranked but haven’t taken either past 2-3 on the volume dial for close to a decade, and I haven’t been in a band in 15 years. Still, they’ve been with me forever and I like having them around.

The trouble is I don’t think I can truly replace either one with a smaller amp. These are OG amps with no master volume control.

Why not? When you get down to it they are pretty similar circuits. I've got a build on the bench right now that's what I call the "VIP" circuit which is kind of a hybrid of the two. Its like an AC-30 but if both channels were "top-boosted" and shared the tone stack like on a Tweed Bassman. Alternately it's like a Bassman if it was cathode biased and you removed the negative feedback. This one is 4xEL84 for ~30W but it could be any output section. It also has a (good) master volume that reacts very well and doesnt compress like crazy like most of them do.

Here's the hurdles, imo, of replacing big amps with small amps:

1) is the preamp the same? an AC4 or an AC10 is not the same as an AC30. Neither is a classic AC15, but i'm not sure about the reissues.

2) you need a push-pull output stage. No champs, AC4s, etc. This kinda limits your power to be at least 10-15 watts which is still very loud, but one can take steps to limit it from there, such as a pentode/triode switch or a master volume.

I’m not an amp builder but from what I understand the negative feedback is a big part of the AC-30 sound?

I thought the AC-15 has the same preamp as the AC-30 and 2xEL84 in the power amp stage rather than 4? I suppose they could be different? I’m not talking about the original EF-86 preamp circuit here, but the later version that the AC-30 was based on.

It was my impression that Denny basically doubled everything to increase the power from the AC-15 to the AC-30. Granted I have never looked at a circuit diagram for either.

I had a Seymour Duncan Convertible years ago and it had a triode/pentode switch that was useful when the attenuation was dialed down. It was a nice all around amp that was more of a hot rodded Fender than anything else.

[Dr Tony Balls]

I’m not an amp builder but from what I understand the negative feedback is a big part of the AC-30 sound?

I thought the AC-15 has the same preamp as the AC-30 and 2xEL84 in the power amp stage rather than 4? I suppose they could be different? I’m not talking about the original EF-86 preamp circuit here, but the later version that the AC-30 was based on.

It was my impression that Denny basically doubled everything to increase the power from the AC-15 to the AC-30. Granted I have never looked at a circuit diagram for either.

I had a Seymour Duncan Convertible years ago and it had a triode/pentode switch that was useful when the attenuation was dialed down. It was a nice all around amp that was more of a hot rodded Fender than anything else.

Yes, the LACK of negative feedback is a big part of the way an AC30 distorts but its a very simple modification to add or remove negative feedback. One can truly have it both ways with a simple toggle or a push-pull knob.

In any era that Dick Denney would be concerned, the AC15 is very different than the AC30. When you start getting into later reissues there may be other version that truly are half powered AC30, but not the originals by any stretch. AC15s in the 60s didnt have a non-EF86 normal channel and nothing was "top-boosted"... only the EF86 channel and the vibrato channel.

[JSett]

No, the Fender Champ and Vox AC-4, AC-10 models have a limited feature set. They have enough volume for playing at home. Not enough for playing live unless mic’d.

The Princeton and AC-15 both have EQ controls and larger speakers that I would want. The AC-15 has 2 channels and not just the Top Boost.

Gotcha. Yeah the AC4 is very limited. A VibroChamp is great apart from the lack of reverb (and volume).

I think you're on the right track with a Princeton. If it was me I'd just get the combo and a bonus 1x12 or 2x12 to use as an extension speaker if needed for a gig

As for the Vox I thought my AC15 (a 2009 one) sounded pretty damn close to my old AC30 (a Korg one) with a little knob-twiddling

[Dr Tony Balls]

As for the Vox I thought my AC15 (a 2009 one) sounded pretty damn close to my old AC30 (a Korg one) with a little knob-twiddling

That's *probably* an AC15CC1 which is more similar to a top-boost AC30 circuit, but not identical. Sound-wise it may do the trick just fine, i'm just talking specifics.