Cabs and Speakers questions: Vox V212BN or 70s Hiwatt with Rola? Input needed.

Make it loud here.
User avatar
k o y l
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 4249
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:33 am
Location: Lille - France
Contact:

Re: Should I buy a good cab with g12-75 or a not so good cab with Vintage 30 ??

Post by k o y l » Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:01 am

the older brother wrote:
k o y l wrote: I've investigated a little about the the Vox cab and it seems it sounds very good. I found a guy that bought it and changed it for the same cab with Blue Alnico celestion speakers and he said both cabs were exactly the same (except for the speakers of course).. so it's good news the cheaper one has not a cheaper construction that the expensive ones.
....but the sound doesn't seem to be an issue  ???
No.. I just wanted to tease you.  :D  (I hope I'm using the good word.. :-[ .. because "tease" can be used in .. well.. another context.. :-X )

I just listenned to a recording I did yesterday with the tonelab set on Vox AC15 amp + Celestion H30 cab and man, what a good sound !  :o
The cleans are clear and chiming and when I step on the DBA supreme OD, it's HUUUUGE ! So huge, you'll swear it's a bariton guitar !
I'll upload the recording soon, you have to hear this ! (and I'd to hear what you guys think of this song anyway...I'm with it for 6 month and feel it's nice but still miss something.. don't know what...  but it's another topic..)

Now that is with the Vox AC15 amp setting... I tried every amp in the tonelab and I always get back to the AC15. It even makes me wonder if I'd better not try to find a Voxish head (Laney ?) rather than a Tiny Terro if I were to change the amp..
Once you're lost in twilights's blue, you don't find your way. The way finds you...

User avatar
the older brother
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 10693
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:12 pm
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden.
Contact:

Re: Should I buy a good cab with g12-75 or a not so good cab with Vintage 30 ??

Post by the older brother » Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:11 am

Well that Vox cab would LOOK nice with this:

Image

:D
Someone knows where I can find the nearest woodchipper to throw my pieces of junk into?

User avatar
k o y l
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 4249
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:33 am
Location: Lille - France
Contact:

Re: Should I buy a good cab with g12-75 or a not so good cab with Vintage 30 ??

Post by k o y l » Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:57 am

the older brother wrote: Well that Vox cab would LOOK nice with this:

Image

:D
I don't even wanna know about the price of this !  :(
I should steal it from Jeff Tweedy... or ask him to give it to me..."C'mon you're rich now ! "
Once you're lost in twilights's blue, you don't find your way. The way finds you...

User avatar
danoisefactory
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:32 pm
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands

Re: Should I buy a good cab with g12-75 or a not so good cab with Vintage 30 ??

Post by danoisefactory » Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:13 am

k o y l wrote:

Now that is with the Vox AC15 amp setting... I tried every amp in the tonelab and I always get back to the AC15. It even makes me wonder if I'd better not try to find a Voxish head (Laney ?) rather than a Tiny Terro if I were to change the amp..
I have the same with my AD50, it keeps coming back to a AC15.

So why didn't i buy that one instead! :(

Well probably, because i didn't know it then... And an AC3 was to expensive...

AC50 or AC100, man, i really would like that  :? :? :? :?

But i think you should go for a vox or vox type amp.
k o y l wrote:
I don't think I'll use the amp at full settings.. It would be security..

and btw, the HH is a solid state amp.

Solidstate should be ok i guess, but still try to find out if it you can or can't do it, because it would be asame to damage those speaker.

good luck and good hunting

- sigh - vox - ac - 50 - sigh - :? :? :?

User avatar
k o y l
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 4249
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:33 am
Location: Lille - France
Contact:

Re: Should I buy a good cab with g12-75 or a not so good cab with Vintage 30 ??

Post by k o y l » Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:23 am

Thanks !  ;)

I thought about buying an AC15CC but I've read horrid stories about reliability issues...
I someone check out eBay UK but old AC15 or equivalent are always on pick-up only..  :(

That why I'm considering Laney's. They seem to be close sounding to Vox, more reliable and cheaper... and I liked what I heard on the few demos on their website, especially clean sounds.. and I don't really need nothing more since I love the sound I get from my dirt pedals.  :)

I thought about some Peavey Classic head. I tried one years ago and liked it.. but will it be the same now ?  ???
Once you're lost in twilights's blue, you don't find your way. The way finds you...

User avatar
danoisefactory
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:32 pm
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands

Re: Should I buy a good cab with g12-75 or a not so good cab with Vintage 30 ??

Post by danoisefactory » Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:40 am

Never tried a Laney, out here they're hard to find and not that cheap.

i always hated peavey for it's bandit series, but i do like their transtube series (or what's it called).

When i was doing some gigs with the band wewent to a musicstore once where i tried out a Peavey JSX and i really loved that one!
And the shop noticed, since the drummer was playing on some drums, the bassist was trying out a new bass and the other guitarist was trying out a new guitar. So in no time we were playing one of our songs really loud through the shop. Until they asked us to quiet it down a bit. Which was unfair because they told me that i had to turn the amp up to really hear it ;D ;D

I heard the Peavey Deuce is nice too, but haven't experienced one myself.
There's just too much choice!

So yeah, stick with the search for a vox-like tone. In that sense Laney seems very ok, built quality and good tone all in a nice budget.

might want one of those myself!
guess i'd have to sell the wife first...

User avatar
k o y l
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 4249
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:33 am
Location: Lille - France
Contact:

Re: Should I buy a good cab with g12-75 or a not so good cab with Vintage 30 ??

Post by k o y l » Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:30 pm

She'll be glad to know !  ;D ;D

You seem to have digged the subject way more than me !
I never heard about the Peavey JSX or Deuce ...

But yeah, too much choice... (and forumites here knows how much choices are difficult to make for me !  ::) Hey it's not my fault, I'm a Libra !  :D )
The voxish amp is the road of security, I'm quite sure I'll like it...
...but this Orange Tiny Terror is very tempting... It happened to me a lot to be blown away by a guitar sound and realizing the amp was an Orange...
The fact that it's small and very portable is a good point too.
It's not sounding bad on this videos for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzaMUSwVNUc

Imagine the same with a Jazzmaster and a 2x12 Cab with H30 instead of the 1x12 cab with V30...  :?
Once you're lost in twilights's blue, you don't find your way. The way finds you...

User avatar
the older brother
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 10693
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:12 pm
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden.
Contact:

Re: Should I buy a good cab with g12-75 or a not so good cab with Vintage 30 ??

Post by the older brother » Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:51 pm

k o y l wrote:
the older brother wrote: Well that Vox cab would LOOK nice with this:

Image

:D
I don't even wanna know about the price of this !  :(
..but You will: €869 on the Swedish version of Thomanns site (I've noticed price differences compared to other countrys).
The diff compared to a Tiny Terror is about €350. Not cheap, but not totally unreachable either... You could always make a wish to Santa!  :D
Someone knows where I can find the nearest woodchipper to throw my pieces of junk into?

User avatar
k o y l
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 4249
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:33 am
Location: Lille - France
Contact:

Re: Should I buy a good cab with g12-75 or a not so good cab with Vintage 30 ??

Post by k o y l » Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:31 pm

:-\ ... the thing is the Tiny Terror is already unreachable !  ... I mean the TT + the Vox cabs are unreachable.

I could buy the Cab because I sold my Valvetronix (which was a AD50VT, not an AD30VT like I thought...  ::) ) so I could buy the can right now but I've no money left for the TT..
If I'd streched the wallet, maybe I could ... but not easily that's for sure.. and it would mean Monique will have to wait in her grave a looooong time before coming back to life !  :(

Maybe if Santa is nice, he will be able to bring me a Tiny Terror...  :)  but not the Vox.  :(  Oh that's no big deal after all... I'll still have gear I'll want to buy when I'll be a big fat rock star !  :P
Once you're lost in twilights's blue, you don't find your way. The way finds you...

User avatar
k o y l
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 4249
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:33 am
Location: Lille - France
Contact:

Re: Should I buy a good cab with g12-75 or a not so good cab with Vintage 30 ??

Post by k o y l » Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:21 pm

I got a subsidiary question for speakers specialist.

These are some caps from the Laney VC 30 amp:

Image
Image
Image

Let say I want to plug the amp only (combo speaker unplugged) in the Vox V212BN which is 16 Ohms: Good or Not good ??  ???
Once you're lost in twilights's blue, you don't find your way. The way finds you...

User avatar
Jay
Admin
Admin
Posts: 7718
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Santa Ana, CA
Contact:

Re: Should I buy a good cab with g12-75 or a not so good cab with Vintage 30 ??

Post by Jay » Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:36 pm

You would use the 8 ohm output with a 16 cab but it will likely sound better if it's matched.  As long as the load is a higher impedance it shouldn't damage the amp.  What you defenitely don't want to do is plug a 4ohm cab into a 16ohm or 8ohm output.

User avatar
danoisefactory
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:32 pm
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands

Re: Should I buy a good cab with g12-75 or a not so good cab with Vintage 30 ??

Post by danoisefactory » Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:38 am

Correct.

But do remember, when you plug a 16 ohm cabinet into an 8 ohms amp, the output of the amp is halved.

so: 8 into 8 = 8 : 8 = 100% power output
the same 8 : 16 = 1 : 2 = 50% power output (which is about 3dB less i think)
etc. etc.
This calculation above is NOT a rule or anything, it's just my way of remembering.

I know somewhere on the net is a good explanation, i'll try to find and post it.
Jay wrote: As long as the load is a higher impedance it shouldn't damage the amp. 
This is a good rule of thumb. Stick to this foor ever and you'll keep your amps ok.
Although speakers can still be damaged by ohm's mismatch it doesn'toccur as often and is a cheaper fix.

If you woud run a 4ohm cabint with a 16 ohm's amp, the speakers wil 'ask' 4x the output that the amp can deliver. So here you have your beautiful Vox AC100 full tube amp :? :? :? , you stick in the wrong cabinet and your transformers transform into molten copper.
Believe me, that is not an easy nor a cheap repair.

User avatar
k o y l
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 4249
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:33 am
Location: Lille - France
Contact:

Re: Should I buy a good cab with g12-75 or a not so good cab with Vintage 30 ??

Post by k o y l » Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:19 am

That's scary !  :(

Anyway I could rewire the Vox to transform it into a 8 Ohm ?

...because the Laney VC30 is also interesting because it's 30 Watts, I don't need a pristine clean sound but that's always good to have some power under you feet.. and if it's half powered when it's plugged in a 16Ohm cab, it become as powerfull as the Tiny Terror..  ::)
Once you're lost in twilights's blue, you don't find your way. The way finds you...

User avatar
danoisefactory
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:32 pm
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands

Re: Should I buy a good cab with g12-75 or a not so good cab with Vintage 30 ??

Post by danoisefactory » Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:06 am

it depends on what ohmage the speakers are.

Let's say you have two speakers:

there 25 watt, 8 ohm.

That means that wether you wire'm parallel or serial, the resulting cabinet is 50 watts.

When wired in parallel the ohmage is:

1/8 + 1/8 = 2/8 (then turn around, just lke resistors) = 8/2 = 4 ohm.

when wired in serial it is 8+8 = 16 ohm.

So if you get speakers there are 16 ohms, you can wire them parallel and you have 8 ohms! :)
If you have speakers that are 4 ohms: 4+4=8 ohms! :)

But if you have 8 ohm speakers, you can not make two of them become 8 ohms. :(

here is some info:
http://colomar.com/Shavano/speaker.html
http://colomar.com/Shavano/spkr_wiring_sp.html
http://colomar.com/Shavano/spkr_wiring.html
http://colomar.com/Shavano/stereocab.html

and more:
http://colomar.com/Shavano/construction.html


good luck! and remember the rule of thumb.
speakercabinet always have the same or higher ohms then the amp. then your amp will live longer.
k o y l wrote: and if it's half powered when it's plugged in a 16Ohm cab, it become as powerfull as the Tiny Terror..  ::)
I didn't explain it good enough, because i'm definitely no expert on this stuff and when it comes to power output its all very different.

I haven't found the info yet about this so here from the top of my hat.

Let's say you have a 50watt amp. and let's asume that it produces a maximum of 100dB of sound. let's call that the outputpower; the energy that you get out of it (all terms used here are just and only for this explanation).
The way sound works and dB's work is that dB is on a logaritmic scale. doubling the output power wil increase the dB with 3. so in this explanation when using a 100 watt, the maximum outputpower would be 103 dB.

That doesn't seem much, but it is a lot.
A normal band rehearses between 110 and 115 db or more. really loud bands hit at 120db and more. There are tables with the corrext listings.
A jetfighter at take-off hits 126 dB.
My band, for example, when measured, produces about 118 - 120 dB. But it doesn't sound as loud as an jetfighter taking off, not can we even with the amps cranked.
That's because of the logaritmic scale and because each soundfrequency has it's own dB sort of.

A low frequency at 100dB sound either louder or not louder as a high frequency at 100dB. Don't remember which.

Now... to create a low frequency, you need more power, because you need to move moer air. That's why a bass-amp is usually more powerful as a guitar amp.

The power rating on an amp show use the maximum power (but can also be rms or max power at certain frequencies), say 30 watts. its stand for the power (electrical, not sure) the amp has to drive a speaker to create the ar to move to create sound.

???

Yes, i totally forgot what i wanted to say.

::)

But don't compare a tiny terror and a laney vc30 with thinking "if i connect a 16 ohm's cab it'll be an amp half as small".
because it's not like that, its way more complex. way more and then some.

And a vc30 with a 16 ohms cabinet will still be loud, you might loose some headroom, but that's basically it.

So forget the technical mumbo jumbo and trust your ears.

Oh and open up the vox cabinet to find out the ohmage of the speakers.
If it's a stereo cab with two speakers i thinkthere two 8-ohm's in them, and you can rewire those to make a 4 ohm cabinet.
Which fits the Laney.

Problem solved! :)

Why didn't i think of that before i wrote all of the above! :-[
;D

User avatar
k o y l
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 4249
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:33 am
Location: Lille - France
Contact:

Re: Should I buy a good cab with g12-75 or a not so good cab with Vintage 30 ??

Post by k o y l » Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:07 pm

HaHa !  ;D 
Thanks for all these infos..

I've search the web but it seems impossible to know the impedance of the speakers of the Vox cab (I can't even find it on the Vox website ! )
Once you're lost in twilights's blue, you don't find your way. The way finds you...

Post Reply