Page 3 of 11
Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.
Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:14 pm
by Larsongs
Unicorn Warrior wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:40 am
I thought about that too. Then I thought that the Princeton is already pretty much grab and go. Probably why they decided not to do it with that model
If I didn't already have a PRRI, DRRI & a Twin having about a $1000 to spend it would still be either a new PRRI or a clean used 65 DRRI...
I'm curious if the Tone Masters are equal at all Volume levels to their Tube Counterparts. DRRI & Twin... Usually when it comes to volume power SS Watts aren't equally as loud as Tube Watts....
Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:17 am
by Larsongs
Larsongs wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:14 pm
Unicorn Warrior wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:40 am
I thought about that too. Then I thought that the Princeton is already pretty much grab and go. Probably why they decided not to do it with that model
If I didn't already have a PRRI, DRRI & a Twin having about a $1000 to spend it would still be either a new PRRI or a clean used 65 DRRI...
I'm curious if the Tone Masters Volume at 1,3,5,7,9 or 10 is equal to the same Volume levels as their Tube Counterparts. DRRI & Twin... Usually when it comes to volume power SS Watts aren't equally as loud as Tube Watts....
Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:22 am
by stilwel
Larsongs wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:14 pm
I'm curious if the Tone Masters are equal at all Volume levels to their Tube Counterparts. DRRI & Twin... Usually when it comes to volume power SS Watts aren't equally as loud as Tube Watts....
The TM Twin actually has a 200W power amp to help with that. Loads of clean power. Check them out!
Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:20 am
by JSutter
I'd be more interested in how it compares to a Mustang (of similar speaker/watts) or Champion. Is it worth the cost (and lack of versatility) compared to their other digital amps that have been out for years.
I'd also like to see inside. My Champion 100's power amp says Mustang on it.
Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:59 am
by takeittothemall
I keep hoping to snag a used one somehow. I'm definitely going to own one of these.
Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:44 am
by Larsongs
stilwel wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:22 am
Larsongs wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:14 pm
I'm curious if the Tone Masters are equal at all Volume levels to their Tube Counterparts. DRRI & Twin... Usually when it comes to volume power SS Watts aren't equally as loud as Tube Watts....
The TM Twin actually has a 200W power amp to help with that. Loads of clean power. Check them out!
SS Power Ratings aren't the same as Tube Amp Power Ratings... I think 100 SS Watts = about 15 Tube Watts.
I've played with my 22 Watt DRRI along with a friend who was playing a 100 Watt Line 6 Amp. His sounded more like 15-20 Watts... My 100 Watt Pro Twin Tube Amp would've made his inaudible...
Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:04 pm
by adamrobertt
Larsongs wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:44 am
stilwel wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:22 am
Larsongs wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:14 pm
I'm curious if the Tone Masters are equal at all Volume levels to their Tube Counterparts. DRRI & Twin... Usually when it comes to volume power SS Watts aren't equally as loud as Tube Watts....
The TM Twin actually has a 200W power amp to help with that. Loads of clean power. Check them out!
SS Power Ratings aren't the same as Tube Amp Power Ratings... I think 100 SS Watts = about 15 Tube Watts.
I've played with my 22 Watt DRRI along with a friend who was playing a 100 Watt Line 6 Amp. His sounded more like 15-20 Watts... My 100 Watt Pro Twin Tube Amp would've made his inaudible...
I've seen this claim repeated a lot over the years and it simply isn't true. A watt is a watt. Sometimes tube amps can "seem" louder because of the different way they break up... most transistor amps stay very very clean throughout the entire range of volume and this can end up sounding thinner or weaker to the ear... but it's just a perceived difference, not an actual one.
Also, I've noticed that a lot of the early derision around these Tone Master amps is mostly based on old repeated "solid state" tropes like the one above, people even referring to them as "transistor" amps. (Not saying these amps don't have transistors, but it's harkening back to the first transistor amps of the 1960s and it's pretty clear that these amps are very different.) Yeah, these amps are "solid state" in a general way, basically just meaning "not tube." But these amps work in a fundamentally different way than the usual solid state amp that we're used to.
Guitarists are generally kind of morons in the way that we obsessively refuse to adapt to new technologies. Do we really all believe that the only possible way to make a good sounding guitar amp must be with 100 year old technology?
Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:49 pm
by Larsongs
adamrobertt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:04 pm
Larsongs wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:44 am
stilwel wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:22 am
The TM Twin actually has a 200W power amp to help with that. Loads of clean power. Check them out!
SS Power Ratings aren't the same as Tube Amp Power Ratings... I think 100 SS Watts = about 15 Tube Watts.
I've played with my 22 Watt DRRI along with a friend who was playing a 100 Watt Line 6 Amp. His sounded more like 15-20 Watts... My 100 Watt Pro Twin Tube Amp would've made his inaudible...
I've seen this claim repeated a lot over the years and it simply isn't true. A watt is a watt. Sometimes tube amps can "seem" louder because of the different way they break up... most transistor amps stay very very clean throughout the entire range of volume and this can end up sounding thinner or weaker to the ear... but it's just a perceived difference, not an actual one.
Also, I've noticed that a lot of the early derision around these Tone Master amps is mostly based on old repeated "solid state" tropes like the one above, people even referring to them as "transistor" amps. (Not saying these amps don't have transistors, but it's harkening back to the first transistor amps of the 1960s and it's pretty clear that these amps are very different.) Yeah, these amps are "solid state" in a general way, basically just meaning "not tube." But these amps work in a fundamentally different way than the usual solid state amp that we're used to.
Guitarists are generally kind of morons in the way that we obsessively refuse to adapt to new technologies. Do we really all believe that the only possible way to make a good sounding guitar amp must be with 100 year old technology?
OK.. I'd love to see the A/B comparisons that bear out the proof of your statement.. I have played side by side with more than one guy with SS, Digital, Modelling Amps, or whatever politically correct name you want use, that claim big Wattage but fall short next to Tube Amps. Comparable size Tube Amps don't just seem louder. They sound louder...
So far the 100 year old Technology is better..... I'm still hearing some fizz in the new Tonemaster when they're pushed....
Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:17 pm
by adamrobertt
Larsongs wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:49 pm
adamrobertt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:04 pm
Larsongs wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:44 am
SS Power Ratings aren't the same as Tube Amp Power Ratings... I think 100 SS Watts = about 15 Tube Watts.
I've played with my 22 Watt DRRI along with a friend who was playing a 100 Watt Line 6 Amp. His sounded more like 15-20 Watts... My 100 Watt Pro Twin Tube Amp would've made his inaudible...
I've seen this claim repeated a lot over the years and it simply isn't true. A watt is a watt. Sometimes tube amps can "seem" louder because of the different way they break up... most transistor amps stay very very clean throughout the entire range of volume and this can end up sounding thinner or weaker to the ear... but it's just a perceived difference, not an actual one.
Also, I've noticed that a lot of the early derision around these Tone Master amps is mostly based on old repeated "solid state" tropes like the one above, people even referring to them as "transistor" amps. (Not saying these amps don't have transistors, but it's harkening back to the first transistor amps of the 1960s and it's pretty clear that these amps are very different.) Yeah, these amps are "solid state" in a general way, basically just meaning "not tube." But these amps work in a fundamentally different way than the usual solid state amp that we're used to.
Guitarists are generally kind of morons in the way that we obsessively refuse to adapt to new technologies. Do we really all believe that the only possible way to make a good sounding guitar amp must be with 100 year old technology?
OK.. I'd love to see the A/B comparisons that bear out the proof of your statement.. I have played side by side with more than one guy with SS, Digital, Modelling Amps, or whatever politically correct name you want use, that claim big Wattage but fall short next to Tube Amps. Comparable size Tube Amps don't just seem louder. They sound louder...
So far the 100 year old Technology is better..... I'm still hearing some fizz in the new Tonemaster when they're pushed....
lol dude on the same token I would also love to see proof of your statement..
To my ears the Tone Master DR sounds way better than the tube version... IMO the tube version is the fizzy one.
A watt is 1 joule of energy per second, by definition. Tube watts aren't different from any other kind of watts. Obviously a shitty store brand transistor amp from 1960 with an ineffective output section and a crappy speaker is going to sound bad and not be very loud, which I think is where most people get their notion of "solid state" amplification from. These new Class D modeling amps really aren't very similar at all aside from their lack of tubes. There is just so much more to the equation than a simple wattage rating.
Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:57 pm
by Larsongs
I guess we'll see who's laughing out loud in time.. Commercials can be altered to portray whatever you want to portray... If that's what you're referring to...
We'll see if these are still on the market 2-3 years from now... Or if they go the way of most SS, Digital, Modeling Amps of the past...
I'm confident good old Tube Amps will still be going strong & be the bar years from now.....
Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:34 am
by jorri
adamrobertt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:04 pm
Larsongs wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:44 am
stilwel wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:22 am
The TM Twin actually has a 200W power amp to help with that. Loads of clean power. Check them out!
SS Power Ratings aren't the same as Tube Amp Power Ratings... I think 100 SS Watts = about 15 Tube Watts.
I've played with my 22 Watt DRRI along with a friend who was playing a 100 Watt Line 6 Amp. His sounded more like 15-20 Watts... My 100 Watt Pro Twin Tube Amp would've made his inaudible...
I've seen this claim repeated a lot over the years and it simply isn't true. A watt is a watt. Sometimes tube amps can "seem" louder because of the different way they break up... most transistor amps stay very very clean throughout the entire range of volume and this can end up sounding thinner or weaker to the ear... but it's just a perceived difference, not an actual one.
Also, I've noticed that a lot of the early derision around these Tone Master amps is mostly based on old repeated "solid state" tropes like the one above, people even referring to them as "transistor" amps. (Not saying these amps don't have transistors, but it's harkening back to the first transistor amps of the 1960s and it's pretty clear that these amps are very different.) Yeah, these amps are "solid state" in a general way, basically just meaning "not tube." But these amps work in a fundamentally different way than the usual solid state amp that we're used to.
Guitarists are generally kind of morons in the way that we obsessively refuse to adapt to new technologies. Do we really all believe that the only possible way to make a good sounding guitar amp must be with 100 year old technology?
A watt is certainly not just a watt.
A clean watt is comparable. However, as you say, tube amps break up nicely. Even when they are run at what modt would call 'clean' they experience distortion, thus pass the threshold of watts which are measured clean.
Add how this wattage is distributed across frequency.
Add the speaker sensitivity.
Add the gain of the preamp.
And there is a lot of variation.
What about how the cabinet projects too.
A watt is just a watt for sure. I. E. NOT dBspl. And dBspl is not perceived volume, its only a level at particular distance and frequency.
Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:38 am
by jorri
Essentially you can make an amp push more watts than advertised by distorting it.
Aside from a huge fuzz pedal that blows the speaker... Usually thats the nice harmonic distortion of tube amp breakup. Before that is where watts are measured. Yet even clean tube amp setting are past that point. Whilst a solid state usually clips nastily beyond that.
The tonemaster may have harmonic distortion but must need the headroom otherwise it will digitally clip as well, so rule of thumb is usually 4x the power for solid states.
Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:48 am
by andy_tchp
These are not traditional 'transistor' amps, they're B&O ICEPower class D, designed for efficiency, low-distortion and cool operation. Kemper also use these in the output section of some of their offerings.
The proof will be in the playing. Youtube clips are, as always, close to useless.
Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:02 am
by adamrobertt
jorri wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:34 am
adamrobertt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:04 pm
Larsongs wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:44 am
SS Power Ratings aren't the same as Tube Amp Power Ratings... I think 100 SS Watts = about 15 Tube Watts.
I've played with my 22 Watt DRRI along with a friend who was playing a 100 Watt Line 6 Amp. His sounded more like 15-20 Watts... My 100 Watt Pro Twin Tube Amp would've made his inaudible...
I've seen this claim repeated a lot over the years and it simply isn't true. A watt is a watt. Sometimes tube amps can "seem" louder because of the different way they break up... most transistor amps stay very very clean throughout the entire range of volume and this can end up sounding thinner or weaker to the ear... but it's just a perceived difference, not an actual one.
Also, I've noticed that a lot of the early derision around these Tone Master amps is mostly based on old repeated "solid state" tropes like the one above, people even referring to them as "transistor" amps. (Not saying these amps don't have transistors, but it's harkening back to the first transistor amps of the 1960s and it's pretty clear that these amps are very different.) Yeah, these amps are "solid state" in a general way, basically just meaning "not tube." But these amps work in a fundamentally different way than the usual solid state amp that we're used to.
Guitarists are generally kind of morons in the way that we obsessively refuse to adapt to new technologies. Do we really all believe that the only possible way to make a good sounding guitar amp must be with 100 year old technology?
A watt is certainly not just a watt.
A clean watt is comparable. However, as you say, tube amps break up nicely. Even when they are run at what modt would call 'clean' they experience distortion, thus pass the threshold of watts which are measured clean.
Add how this wattage is distributed across frequency.
Add the speaker sensitivity.
Add the gain of the preamp.
And there is a lot of variation.
What about how the cabinet projects too.
A watt is just a watt for sure. I. E. NOT dBspl. And dBspl is not perceived volume, its only a level at particular distance and frequency.
You're actually agreeing with me here. Maybe I wasn't being very articulate. What I'm trying to say is that "wattage" isn't really a good enough way to figure out how loud an amp is, because of all of what you just said, as well as what I said. Especially so with these newer class D and modeling amps.
I doubt that Fender went through such painstaking lengths to recreate every aspect of these amps and didn't think about volume. I'm sure they are just as loud.
Re: Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amp.
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:12 am
by Larsongs
The Specs say it all....
Fender Twin Reverb Tonemaster, 200 Watts to simulate Fender Tube Twin Reverb, 85 Watts....
https://www.zzounds.com/item--FEN2274200
Fender Deluxe Reverb Tonemaster, 100 Watts to simulate Fender Tube Deluxe Reverb, 22 Watts..
https://www.zzounds.com/item--FEN2274100