Vintage vs Reissue Amps - is it that hard to Hear?

[jthomas]

The biggest difference between the Fender RI and the vintage amps is the wiring method (i.e., RIs use a printed circuit board). When (not if) an amp develops an electrical problem, it is possible to fix an amp that's wired point-to-point or on an eyelet board. Repairing an amp built on a printed circuit (PC) board is really difficult. Unsoldering components for testing or replacement often damages the PC board traces and then you have to solder in little bits of wire to fix that. Also, from what I have read, Fender considers their less-expensive PC-built amps to be disposable when faulty (i.e., the repair is more expensive than the value of the amp). Techs will charge more to work on amps built with PC boards.

[adamrobertt]

The biggest difference between the Fender RI and the vintage amps is the wiring method (i.e., RIs use a printed circuit board). When (not if) an amp develops an electrical problem, it is possible to fix an amp that's wired point-to-point or on an eyelet board. Repairing an amp built on a printed circuit (PC) board is really difficult. Unsoldering components for testing or replacement often damages the PC board traces and then you have to solder in little bits of wire to fix that. Also, from what I have read, Fender considers their less-expensive PC-built amps to be disposable when faulty (i.e., the repair is more expensive than the value of the amp). Techs will charge more to work on amps built with PC boards.

Honestly I think a lot of this is overblown/overhyped by dudes who are more or less just speculating on the internet, not from direct experience.

Yeah, sure, the PCBs are a little more difficult to work on, but they really just require more care and patience, and well, skill I guess. PCBs are NOT inferior electronically to standard discrete components, in fact they are superior. I modded my '68 Custom Deluxe Reverb successfully, and it wasn't really that hard. I just had to be really careful with application of heat when I was unsoldering/soldering on the board. Went fine though.

Anyway, that's really the ONLY downside to PCBs - that they're a little harder to work on for the average tech. However, on the flip side, the DRRI is an INCREDIBLY reliable amp, and it is unlikely that most users will ever need to have components replaced.

[jthomas]

Honestly I think a lot of this is overblown/overhyped by dudes who are more or less just speculating on the internet, not from direct experience.

Yeah, sure, the PCBs are a little more difficult to work on, but they really just require more care and patience, and well, skill I guess. PCBs are NOT inferior electronically to standard discrete components, in fact they are superior. I modded my '68 Custom Deluxe Reverb successfully, and it wasn't really that hard. I just had to be really careful with application of heat when I was unsoldering/soldering on the board. Went fine though.

Anyway, that's really the ONLY downside to PCBs - that they're a little harder to work on for the average tech. However, on the flip side, the DRRI is an INCREDIBLY reliable amp, and it is unlikely that most users will ever need to have components replaced.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I'll fix non-PBC amps for my friends, but not amps with PC boards. I am speaking from personal experience, not just internet chatter. I agree that there is nothing inherently less reliable in a PBC amp, but they are engineered for secific price points with a corporate accountant's eye for the manufacturing cost. The caps and tranformers are not always top end. That's why there is a big secondary market for upgraded amp components (e.g., ClassicTone, Sozo caps, ets). I also have a 68 Custom and I do love it. Also, I don't think that vintage amps inherently sound better. I have no hate for reissues, but they are what they are.

[OffYourFace]

I watched the OP's linked video. The old one only sounds better when he cranks them up for overdrive. But clean, not much difference. I'd probably go with the RI for clean tones. Just back off the bass.

Reissue amps can vary as well. I've heard some great ones. Speakers are very important.

[adamrobertt]

I watched the OP's linked video. The old one only sounds better when he cranks them up for overdrive. But clean, not much difference. I'd probably go with the RI for clean tones. Just back off the bass.

Reissue amps can vary as well. I've heard some great ones. Speakers are very important.

Yeah, I'd say the speaker probably matters more than any other factor. People overlook this fact quite frequently. A lot of the "magic" of a great vintage amp is likely a really good, broken in speaker.

[sookwinder]

The biggest difference between the Fender RI and the vintage amps is the wiring method (i.e., RIs use a printed circuit board). When (not if) an amp develops an electrical problem, it is possible to fix an amp that's wired point-to-point or on an eyelet board. Repairing an amp built on a printed circuit (PC) board is really difficult. Unsoldering components for testing or replacement often damages the PC board traces and then you have to solder in little bits of wire to fix that. Also, from what I have read, Fender considers their less-expensive PC-built amps to be disposable when faulty (i.e., the repair is more expensive than the value of the amp). Techs will charge more to work on amps built with PC boards.

Honestly I think a lot of this is overblown/overhyped by dudes who are more or less just speculating on the internet, not from direct experience.

I have to disagree with your assessment.

My first ever valve amp was a Hot Rod Deluxe.
Great valve amp, loud and had the controls and sounds we needed for a recording I was involved in.
The amp has never left my house. Used every 2nd or 3rd week (during the recording sessions) that would last 3 or 4 hours. Actual playing time each session would be maybe 1 - 1.5 hours. After use I would let it cool down, put a cover back on and move it from bedroom no.1 to bedroom no.2.

After about three years of on/off sessions (only could do the recording when my guitarist and I were both in the country and available) the HRD blew up. Huge bang, then nothing. Immediately I could smell the "magic smoke" that is contained within all electronic components so I knew the issue was on the component board rather than the valves or transformer etc.

Took it to the authorised Fender store for repair and the repair cost me about $600 (in those days a HRD cost between$1800 - $2000 in Oz.)

I paid the bill because (a) I needed to get that amp working again because we had 3/4 of an album completed with the sound of that amp and (b) the repair man was just doing his job and was not ripping off me the customer. Parts he was having to buy from Fender Australia were damn expensive and much time was spent opening up the amp to repair... like opening up a watch … things could fall out, to get to point A you needed to remove a shit load of other stuff which just takes time. Unlike the old way of Fender amps where you just remove the chassis and everything is there in front of you to see and repair.

But what really pissed me off after the repair man explained was that while it was just one component had failed, it had caused catastrophic failure of other components around the same areas, melting circuit board tracks .. in fact vapourising circuit board tracks, which all had to be rebuilt by the repairer. The repair guy said that in an old style Fender amp, using fibre board, eyelets, real connecting wire and individual components this catastrophic failure of other components around the initial failure would not have occurred. Even though they only sold new Fender amps, he recommended/strongly advised me to look for old (let's say vintage) Fender amps next time I want to buy something.

I took his advise, bought a few vintage Fender amps, then taught myself to design/build my own amps (with the help of many learned people here at OSG). Some of these amps have had failures of components (or I have say mistakenly put in a 2.2k res when it should have been a 220k res ) but there has never been a catastrophic failure like that I experienced with the HRD. And when there was a failure I could repair/replace withinin a couple of minutes of removing the chassis.

The above is real life and not internet speculation

[adamrobertt]

Well, it's also an anecdotal sample, and I have the opposite experience. Either way, I wasn't talking about the HRD, which I've heard has a sketchier track record than the DRRI, which is a very different design.

Back to your point though, I actually gigged and toured with a HRD that I did not take particular care of (never covered it, it got shit spilled on it like beer and candle wax, etc.) and it was very reliable for about 7 years before I sold it.

My other guitarist has been using the same HRD for about 12 years that he REALLY doesn't take care of (left it outside all winter one time) and as far as I'm aware he's never had an issue with it. All he's done is change out the jacks and put in a new speaker. The metal is all corroded and shit and it looks awful but it works great.

Edit: To further clarify, my point is that all amps are liable to fail, and that your amp may have just been a lemon, or maybe you had an electrical fault in your house, who knows? But also, the HRD and the DRRI are very different beasts, which is why it isn't useful to just say "vintage amp good PCB amp bad." The HRD has a really odd design on the inside, with a big, wide, vertically mounted circuit board that is mounted such that it's kind of under a lot of stress, and also a lot of stress is put on the ribbon cables. The DRRI is not like that at all, it's a pretty small board which is horizontally mounted in the same way that a vintage one would be and is a much sturdier and sensible design that is most certainly less prone to issue.

[Jaguar018]

Well, it's also an anecdotal sample, and I have the opposite experience. Either way, I wasn't talking about the HRD, which I've heard has a sketchier track record than the DRRI, which is a very different design.

Back to your point though, I actually gigged and toured with a HRD that I did not take particular care of (never covered it, it got shit spilled on it like beer and candle wax, etc.) and it was very reliable for about 7 years before I sold it.

My other guitarist has been using the same HRD for about 12 years that he REALLY doesn't take care of (left it outside all winter one time) and as far as I'm aware he's never had an issue with it. All he's done is change out the jacks and put in a new speaker. The metal is all corroded and shit and it looks awful but it works great.

Edit: To further clarify, my point is that all amps are liable to fail, and that your amp may have just been a lemon, or maybe you had an electrical fault in your house, who knows? But also, the HRD and the DRRI are very different beasts, which is why it isn't useful to just say "vintage amp good PCB amp bad." The HRD has a really odd design on the inside, with a big, wide, vertically mounted circuit board that is mounted such that it's kind of under a lot of stress, and also a lot of stress is put on the ribbon cables. The DRRI is not like that at all, it's a pretty small board which is horizontally mounted in the same way that a vintage one would be and is a much sturdier and sensible design that is most certainly less prone to issue.

Would you agree or disagree that regardless of an amp's reliability, that common vintage amps, like Fender's, are generally easier to repair than modern circuit-board amps?

[adamrobertt]

Well, it's also an anecdotal sample, and I have the opposite experience. Either way, I wasn't talking about the HRD, which I've heard has a sketchier track record than the DRRI, which is a very different design.

Back to your point though, I actually gigged and toured with a HRD that I did not take particular care of (never covered it, it got shit spilled on it like beer and candle wax, etc.) and it was very reliable for about 7 years before I sold it.

My other guitarist has been using the same HRD for about 12 years that he REALLY doesn't take care of (left it outside all winter one time) and as far as I'm aware he's never had an issue with it. All he's done is change out the jacks and put in a new speaker. The metal is all corroded and shit and it looks awful but it works great.

Edit: To further clarify, my point is that all amps are liable to fail, and that your amp may have just been a lemon, or maybe you had an electrical fault in your house, who knows? But also, the HRD and the DRRI are very different beasts, which is why it isn't useful to just say "vintage amp good PCB amp bad." The HRD has a really odd design on the inside, with a big, wide, vertically mounted circuit board that is mounted such that it's kind of under a lot of stress, and also a lot of stress is put on the ribbon cables. The DRRI is not like that at all, it's a pretty small board which is horizontally mounted in the same way that a vintage one would be and is a much sturdier and sensible design that is most certainly less prone to issue.

Would you agree or disagree that regardless of an amp's reliability, that common vintage amps, like Fender's, are generally easier to repair than modern circuit-board amps?

Sure, but I never argued that they weren't. In fact, one of the main things I said in a previous post is that is probably the only knock on newer amps. What I really don't agree with is the idea that modern amps are somehow "worse" as amps, though, which was the original point of this thread - that somehow vintage amps are all special and sound good and reissue amps are all lame and sound worse.

Which I wholly reject, regardless of perceived repairability.

[øøøøøøø]

As others noticed, the test in the video is flawed because "amp B" is quite a bit louder (and has more reverb applied).

In general, I think the Fender RI amps are quite good, especially the current DRRI.

In the past, they have sometimes been "not quite as good." When they switched to the Jensen C12K, that's when I really started to like them.

I can often tell a difference between a DRRI and a vintage Deluxe Reverb. Sometimes the vintage one is "extra special." Sometimes the vintage one is just beaten up and sounds worse than the reissue.

DRRIs are fairly consistent. Half-century-old amps are all over... some are transcendent, some are awful (but could probably be repaired and sound great), and most are somewhere in the middle.

The PCB versus PTP/tag/turret/eyelet board debate:

I think you'd be hard-pressed to prove a sonic difference that results from any build method. Reliability-wise, there are advantages and disadvantages to each, but I vastly prefer working on the old style if a repair is necessary.

The DRRI is built with a somewhat intelligent compromise--the tube sockets are mounted off-board, which removes a big source of stress (heat) and potential failure.

[marqueemoon]

I’ve had a few friends get burned on recurring service issues with PCB-based amps.

That’s really the only reason I’m against them.

[StevenO]

The only two people I know who have owned HRD/BD amps have had them go in and out of repair shops for shit that shouldn't occur in well-made amps. One gigged, the other played at home. That line of amps just simply aren't reliable. They're disposable, not life-long workhorses like the Fender amps of olde.

[Telliot]

I have no problem with modern amps per se, but as has been mentioned, PTP wiring is much easier to suss out problems. On the other hand, modern amps that are hand wired are often as (or more) expensive than vintage amps.

[øøøøøøø]

Implementation is a big thing.

There are ways to do PCB amps that are rock-solid reliable and even pretty easy to service.

Those do not tend to be the "most inexpensive way," however, so (particularly on affordable amps) things are not always (or even usually) done that way.

The technology itself isn't bad. But like any other technology, it can be implemented well or it can be implemented poorly/cheaply.

[adamrobertt]

Implementation is a big thing.

There are ways to do PCB amps that are rock-solid reliable and even pretty easy to service.

Those do not tend to be the "most inexpensive way," however, so (particularly on affordable amps) things are not always (or even usually) done that way.

The technology itself isn't bad. But like any other technology, it can be implemented well or it can be implemented poorly/cheaply.

This is what I was trying to get at above. The Hot Rod series of amps is Fender's affordable "entry level" line of tube amps. Of course they have to make compromises to keep the price low. I think a lot of anti PCB rhetoric comes from scenarios like this. The HRD as I mentioned above has a really oddly and problematically designed chassis. The orientation and positioning of the PCB with relation to the other components of the amp is really not ideal and IMO leads to most of the issues that they have.

Opening up a recent Deluxe Reverb RI is really totally different. They are simply and intelligently laid out and are a totally different thing.