Let's talk Champs...

[Jay]

So what are the better ones?  Black or Silver? Vibro or non vibro?  Ceramic or alnico speakers?  Any Champ know-it-alls around here?

[OffYourFace]

I've played many champs and my favorite model was a BF vibro model.  It had a ceramic in it, a replacement.  The 8" Alnicos are too easy to blow.

That's an amp that you can easily make sound good no matter what.  Get a beat-up SF vibro model, change the caps and even change the spkr to a 10".  Then you got yerself a lower wattage Princeton.

[flatfiver]

I've never compared BF to SF side-by-side, but AFAIK the circuits remained the same.  Late SF you get particle board cabs.  I've got a '79 that I put a Weber Signature AlNiCo in and it's a great little amp.  The Vibros are supposed to break up earlier/more than the regular ones.  Also look at Broncos - they're identical to VibroChamps with a different faceplate.

[luau]

I've never compared side by side but I'd be amazed if BFs and SFs sound all that different. The circuits do vary slightly but not much. BF layout. SF layout. Note the SF's cap between pins 5 & 8 of the 6V6. The SF PT provides 50 volts above what the BF provides, thus the 12AX7As in the SF. I've got hard copy of an earlier AA764 revision than this one that shows one cap with a different value than all following BF and SF revisions. Looking at these layouts, it's the second cap from the right. Instead of the 0.10MFD shown, it's 0.08MFD or 0.02MFD, I don't recall which.

My '71 Vibro Champ is running a Weber 12F125 (mounted in my Twin). I wanted it punchy and went ceramic. That's what I got. It's really in your face. With the recent cap job I gave it, I'd probably have been happier with alnico.

edit: The cap in question is highlighted here.

[GUITARmole]

That's an amp that you can easily make sound good no matter what.  Get a beat-up SF vibro model, change the caps and even change the spkr to a 10".  Then you got yerself a lower wattage Princeton.

That's exactly what I did.  I put a MOD series 10" Jensen in and it sounds great!

I don't think you can really go wrong with a Champ.  They all sound good depending on what sound you're after but the stock speakers are the weakest link IMO.

[chrisjedijane]

I agree - I bought a '74 a while ago and the speaker died pretty soon after I bought it. I still haven't got around to buying a replacement for it

[i love sharin foo]

I used to have a couple SF ones... a Vibro model and a normal one. They did sound really good, but the stock speakers like others have said were what turned me away from them eventually. The couldn't deal with the lows that I like to send to them. I bet a 10" speaker would help a lot. Also, I had a Musicmaster bass amp which sounded REALLY good. To my ears, it really sounded a little like a baby Bassman. I wish I still had it    I had one of the cheap Jensen MOD series 12" speakers in it and it was a real nice speaker.

Justin

[Jay]

So I played through a few at Blues Angel Music yesterday.  The best sounding one was a alnico speaker SF Vibro followed by a SF Vibro with a ceramic speaker... both original.  There was one with a newer Jensen alnico re-issue speaker but it sounded way too harsh and brittle IMO.  I thought the original speakers were a huge improvement over it.  The ceramic equipped one had noticeably better sounding vibrato and was much gainier.  It had newer tubes so it may have been serviced but on the whole the tone didn't seem to be quite as nice...  I think the speaker was the difference.  Too bad they go bad so quickly.

What's a good price for one of these things?  I'm not to keen on spending over $250 really but it seems $300 might be about as low as I can get one.  I'd prefer a BF based on appearance alone (never cared for the SF look) but they seem to demand quite a premium price.

[OffYourFace]

Hey Jay, you can still find an SF for $250 easily, even for $150.  Network outside the stores if you can, friend of a friend, etc.

My friend just got a nice late '70s Vibro Champ for free!  His friend's uncle had it in his closet.  "You play guitar?  Cool, want this?"

An ex of mine had non-vibro champ w/ an Alnico.  It sounded cool boosted with my Roger Mayer Mongoose Fuzz, great recordings were made...
One day just playing around, not recording,  I blew the speaker...  So then I had no choice, I broke up with her. 

[Jay]

If there's one thing I'm terrible at its networking.  I don't really know a single musician here (in LA) other then the couple of folks on the board that I've met.  I might throw up a wanted ad here and see where that gets me.

[luau]

A quick look at the completed items on ebay shows quite a few sold in that price range and below in the last month.

[OffYourFace]

If there's one thing I'm terrible at its networking.  I don't really know a single musician here (in LA) other then the couple of folks on the board that I've met.  I might throw up a wanted ad here and see where that gets me.

Yeah, Calif. is tough.  It's so big and spread out.  When Guitar Oasis had their store in Huntington Beach, I'd meet people there all the time (and got deals).  There was also that really cool Pawn Shop with the Vintage guitar store built inside in the 90's...
Shit I can't remember it's name.  Bellflower, Artesia, Lakewood... somewhere around there.  They once had a '65 D&B Jaguar for $200 but it was completely abused.  Broken & missing binding, changed tuners, parts missing, you name it.  I wish I knew then what I know now...

[fullerplast]

A pawn shop near me had a SF Champ for $230 last time I was there, but it's been months. I was going to mention it here, but I looked on eBay and saw better examples for less money. So I figured it wasn't much of a deal. It was filthy, had a few snags on the tolex, and a dent in the faceplate. I was going to offer $200 even out the door... but the sales guys were busy and the longer I looked at it, the less I wanted it. I don't know what year it was, but the speaker looked original.


Edit: Now that my son is home, I reclaimed my SF Musicmaster Bass amp from him. That's a pretty cool little amp too...


Edit2:  Don't forget if you're searching.. the Bronco Amp is actually a SF Vibro Champ. I'll bet some sneak by on eBay because people don't look for them. I think they were made from '68 - '72 and sold alongside the Bronco. The only difference is the red BRONCO logo.

[GUITARmole]

I bought my 70's silverfaced Vibro Champ off of fleabay a few months back for (I think) $175.  It was the chassis only so by the time I bought a few caps that needed replacing, MOD 10" speaker, tolex, wood, and grillcloth I was into it about $250 not counting my labor which was free.  At the time I thought that I paid too much, but I love a project (can't pass up a reject amp fixer-upper) and now I have a white tolexed Vibro Champ with a 10" speaker!

Since then I've seen them going for CRAZY money!  It doesn't seem unusual to pay $300-350 for a Vibro, a little less for a non-Vibro Champ.  The blackfaced models are really insane price-wise!  I think (for real) that you could buy a Twin for similar prices which is a sure sign that the market is for smaller low powered amps now.

[mjet]

I bought a '78 Champ for $190 and an '81 (the blackface-style ones, but not the Champ II by Rivera) for $180. And this is in the past year, so eBay bargains are out there still if you're patient.

So I played through a few at Blues Angel Music yesterday.  The best sounding one was a alnico speaker SF Vibro followed by a SF Vibro with a ceramic speaker... both original.  There was one with a newer Jensen alnico re-issue speaker but it sounded way too harsh and brittle IMO.  I thought the original speakers were a huge improvement over it.  The ceramic equipped one had noticeably better sounding vibrato and was much gainier.  It had newer tubes so it may have been serviced but on the whole the tone didn't seem to be quite as nice...  I think the speaker was the difference.  Too bad they go bad so quickly.

The '78 had a shredded speaker cone so I bought a Jensen MOD 8" replacement (it was cheap and available - $40 delivered to Europe is a steal). It's alright, but I will need to compare it with the '81 (which has its original speaker) to see whether I will get a better speaker or not. If I decide it is lacking something I'll get a Weber Sig model - those really seem to make people happy.

Break-in is another big factor - those originals have been played through a lot more than the reissue, and it might just be the case that it will sound less harsh once it is a bit broken-in.