Shadows Of Knight fuzz?

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sholkham
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Re: Shadows Of Knight fuzz?

Post by sholkham » Thu May 19, 2022 10:55 am

fuzzjunkie wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 8:02 am
Probably not. All the pictures of Shadows of Knight that I have seen have Fender heads and cabinets behind them. The Vox 7-series amps were pretty rare. Vox barely made 100 of the Vox UL730 used on Sargent Pepper. Jimmy Page used those very cool fuzz tones on a couple of songs as well. The 7120 was only slightly more common. They were only introduced in late 1966, which is probably too late for this recording.

Those fuzz circuits are also a more singing, treble boosted fuzz tone with nice sustain, not the raw and ragged, all attack and no sustain sound the OP is looking for. That’s an FZ-1 into a clean amp with lots of headroom. The Gibson guitar gives it a little more punch. Listen to “And your bird can sing” versus “Satisfaction.”
Ah I was thinking of the US Super Beatle, which to the best of my knowledge was never actually used by the Beatles, and I thought had a unique built in fuzz. I've never played one in person, but I've seen it namechecked in liner notes of some 60's garage bands. I have also seen some builders put the circuit in a pedal

You are probably right about the FZ-1 and fender combo though
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Re: Shadows Of Knight fuzz?

Post by fuzzjunkie » Thu May 19, 2022 12:39 pm

sholkham wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 10:55 am
fuzzjunkie wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 8:02 am
Probably not. All the pictures of Shadows of Knight that I have seen have Fender heads and cabinets behind them. The Vox 7-series amps were pretty rare. Vox barely made 100 of the Vox UL730 used on Sargent Pepper. Jimmy Page used those very cool fuzz tones on a couple of songs as well. The 7120 was only slightly more common. They were only introduced in late 1966, which is probably too late for this recording.

Those fuzz circuits are also a more singing, treble boosted fuzz tone with nice sustain, not the raw and ragged, all attack and no sustain sound the OP is looking for. That’s an FZ-1 into a clean amp with lots of headroom. The Gibson guitar gives it a little more punch. Listen to “And your bird can sing” versus “Satisfaction.”
Ah I was thinking of the US Super Beatle, which to the best of my knowledge was never actually used by the Beatles, and I thought had a unique built in fuzz. I've never played one in person, but I've seen it namechecked in liner notes of some 60's garage bands. I have also seen some builders put the circuit in a pedal

You are probably right about the FZ-1 and fender combo though
Oh sure, Vox teamed up with Thomas Organ because they couldn’t keep up with US demand for British Invasion sounds. To build more amps with higher margins, Thomas pushed Vox into making transistor based amps. The 7-series amps were hybrids with transistor preamps and tube power amps, and then the switch was made to full transistors. I think with the Super Beatles, but maybe the Conqueror. Not 100% sure about that part of Vox history myself.

The fuzz circuits are all the same 2 transistor design though. They’re just incorporated differently into the different models. Some have the fuzz before the preamp and others have it baked into the middle, and most are preset without any controls for tone or volume. Just on or off. That and different speakers account for most of the tonal differences between them, I think.

The circuit is in the Fuzz Face family, basically a silicon version of the Tonebender Mk1.5. Similar to the Italian Vox 2 transistor silicon Tonebender and the Vox Distortion Booster.

The Colorsound One Knob Fuzz is the circuit in pedal form, and there are a number of clones; Lumpy’s Electric Majik, Casteldine’s Magical Mystery Box, I think the Jext Telez is another. JHS or Keeley probably has a clone as well.

Even if the Nuggets type garage bands didn’t use Vox amps, they probably used the Italian made Vox Tonebenders that are basically the same thing with just a part adjustment here or there because the transistor values are different.

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Re: Shadows Of Knight fuzz?

Post by fuzzjunkie » Sat May 21, 2022 6:55 am

MrShake wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 11:31 am
What's your favorite kind of fuzz that might have gotten those Nuggets sounds? And do you use a modern variant that gets you to the "same" sound a different way than vintage-spec?
It has been mentioned a couple of times already, but the most common fuzz for Nuggets tones is the Italian made 2 transistor Vox Tonebender. Since you’ve already built a Fuzz Face it would be a nice variant of that circuit. Just be sure to look for the silicon version with 2 transistors, there are other variations since there are at least 5 Tonebender varieties.

Of course you know the silicon Fuzzrite, then there’s the FY-2 from Shin-ei that’s a Japanese version of that. There’s also the Jordan Bosstone which is popular with modern mods as it can do trumpet, trombone, or Spirit in the Sky fuzz tones.

For something more in the early 3 transistor FZ-1 and Tonebender Mk1 range, there is the Zonk Machine. Supposedly easier to get working than the 2 it originates from. The 1st version is germanium, but then Q2 was replaced with a silicon transistor to make it more stable. The 2nd version was all silicon and was sold separately as Zonk II or in dual pedal called the Shatterbox in combination with a treble booster. Marc Bolan from T-Rex was a fan of that one, but very few were probably used by garage bands. More psychedelic or early heavy metal.

In the psychedelic arsenal you can find the Selmer Buzz Box, used by early Pink Floyd, the Pep Box used by the Beatles, and the Tonebender Mk1.5 which may have been the predecessor to the Fuzz Face and used by Page in the later Yardbirds and early Led Zeppelin days. All those are 2 transistor and could be made with silicon transistors although I think they were all originally germanium.

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Re: Shadows Of Knight fuzz?

Post by MrShake » Sat May 21, 2022 12:54 pm

fuzzjunkie wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 6:55 am
It has been mentioned a couple of times already, but the most common fuzz for Nuggets tones is the Italian made 2 transistor Vox Tonebender. Since you’ve already built a Fuzz Face it would be a nice variant of that circuit. Just be sure to look for the silicon version with 2 transistors, there are other variations since there are at least 5 Tonebender varieties.
fuzzjunkie, you truly are a junkie for this stuff.

A Tone Bender was last on my list for this phase of builds and I've been a bit scared off by the Mk I and II builds for a few reasons I'll get into in a minute. But you've convinced me, and I've put it next on my list. So, just to be clear, pretty much any layout using two silicon transistors is the one, as the "typical" Mk 1.5 was germanium, correct? [Edit, more reading clarified the above misunderstanding, I think. "2-transistor silicon" should get me what I need.]

I've got an FY-2 I adore, and I didn't realize how much DNA it shared with the Fuzzrite without understanding the schematic. In fact, the first thing I thought when I tried "modern" mode on my Fuzzrite (with the 22K resistor lifted) was how it was pretty close in character to the Shin-Ei.

The Zonk II and the Selmer are also likely candidates for my next slate, I appreciate the guidance, this level of pedalheading is new to me, and your info is invaluable. Plus, it saves me money.

OK, so, finally... Tone Benders Mk I and II. There's two things that put me off, and I'm wondering if you or anyone else might offer some advice.

I was a bit hesitant at my level of skill to drop for a matched set of Ge transistors without having some level of confidence I wouldn't fry them or end up with a paperweight full of spaghetti. So, maybe after these 7 pedals I've cranked out lately, I'm ready. But silicon seems "safer" to me until I get my footing and as long as I end up with something cool in the ballpark, I'm good with that, considering the relative pennies I'm dropping per pedal.

BUT (and this is the biggest of buts), it's only just occurred to me that a pedal being daisy chain friendly is borderline necessary. Yes, I can use batteries, but I'm not really in a position to overhaul my pedal power setup right now.

But I still want a Mk I Tone Bender, and then a Mk II.

- So, would building a PNP germanium Tone Bender with transistors from Small Bear or somewhere be as simple a drop-in on my board as one of those polarity reversing adapters for a 1Spot, or would I need to reorient the pedal (caps, power jack) for PNP then be able to use it on a chain, or is the inability to be daisy-chained simply one of the things I'd have to live with to get that circuit under my feet?

- Alternatively, are there modern silicon reworkings of the classic circuits for NPN center-negative that pass the smell test? Or is it a case of ordering a fine brie and getting individually wrapped singles because cheese is cheese, where simply nothing can compare? And I don't mean it in the cork-sniffer sense, only in a "they just can't make Si TBs sound like the Ge ones" way.

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Re: Shadows Of Knight fuzz?

Post by hulakatt » Sat May 21, 2022 1:57 pm

Just personally, I find that fuzzes sound drastically different on a power supply vs powered by a 9v battery. Much more so then different types of batteries or different transistors. I don't really have an issue with having battery-only fuzzes on my board either as I usually run them first in the chain anyway and that's just another pedal on my board that doesn't require another power cable.
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Re: Shadows Of Knight fuzz?

Post by fuzzjunkie » Sun May 22, 2022 8:16 am

I only have one or two fuzz pedals that can successfully run off power. Most sound better on battery even with a power tap, so I don’t know much about how that would work. Some builders have even created battery simulator devices so that powered pedals sound more like battery.

For a silicon based Mk1.5, look no further than the Colorsound one knob fuzz. (Edit) Look for David Main’s (D*A*M) parts comparison lists, he’s made a number of OKF clones and some are high gain and reedy with no clean up while others are low gain and woolly like a germanium Fuzz Face.

Due to the transistor leakage required in the FZ-1 and Mk1 circuits, I don’t think you can build a successful silicon based device. I mean, you could eventually get it to work, but it wouldn’t sound right. Joe Gore built a series of silicon based fuzz pedals to see if germanium was necessary, and his Mk1 sounded downright anemic. Not throaty, raw and woody like it should.

Now you can build a silicon pedal that sounds like a Mk1 to some extent, but the circuit will be completely different and it’s not 100% there as the gating and decay are off even when the initial attack and tone sounds right.

The MKII is more stable and easier to build. I think a silicon version is possible and there’s probably already schematics for it, but this was a popular DYI kit back when the germanium transistors were more obtainable, so if you can source some (3) from Small Bear you should be okay.

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Re: Shadows Of Knight fuzz?

Post by jthomas » Sun May 22, 2022 8:57 am

This circuit will give you the buzzsaw fuzz from the 1960's. There is an errata to the original article that fixes an error. My engineer uncle build one for me when I was 14 or 15. Fully buzz saw capable.

https://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopi ... 70&t=30750

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Re: Shadows Of Knight fuzz?

Post by fuzzjunkie » Sun May 22, 2022 8:58 am

I couldn’t find the OKF comparison chart. This is basically the same idea with fewer options, but includes tag board layouts.

https://tagboardeffects.blogspot.com/2 ... .html?m=1

And the Joe Gore fuzz builds. I thought they were germanium circuits modded and tested with silicon, but he’s actually using generic germanium transistors to test for “mojo” and whether a circuit needs a specific magic transistor or not. Most don’t as long as the gains match the proper range:

https://tonefiend.com/guitar/fuzzdetective/


Here’s another comparison that says it was pulled from Dr. Tony Balls, who is a member here:

http://music.codydeschenes.com/?p=526

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Re: Shadows Of Knight fuzz?

Post by MrShake » Mon May 23, 2022 5:11 am

I hope nobody minds my leaving all this here, but these are generally the kind of threads I end up digging through when I'm looking for info of my own, so I'm hoping by working through some of this in the forum, maybe it will help me and somebody else down the road. Took years to figure out how to fix my DF-2, but a random thread had the answer, so here's more random thread.
hulakatt wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 1:57 pm
Just personally, I find that fuzzes sound drastically different on a power supply vs powered by a 9v battery. Much more so then different types of batteries or different transistors. I don't really have an issue with having battery-only fuzzes on my board either as I usually run them first in the chain anyway and that's just another pedal on my board that doesn't require another power cable.
You know, you're right, and point taken. I'm starting to realize that getting hung up on modern conveniences (even basic ones) isn't something I oughtta be doing while splashing around in real raw, primitive, bespoke fuzz. (more below)
jthomas wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 8:57 am
This circuit will give you the buzzsaw fuzz from the 1960's. There is an errata to the original article that fixes an error. My engineer uncle build one for me when I was 14 or 15. Fully buzz saw capable. https://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopi ... 70&t=30750
This... *this* looks interesting. Thank you for that, I'll admit, I've never heard of it and that swelling feature sounds like it could turn out pretty damn cool. I still have trouble taking something from schematic to layout (other than just literally building the schematic on a big piece of board), so I'm going to have to pore over this a bit or find a vero layout, but thank you, because this one is DEFINITELY going on the list.

So:

"Tone Bender Quest": As I put it above, yeah, you're all right. I didn't figure there'd be a good simple reworking of the circuit for silicon TBs in the modern age without a lot of work, and at that point, I've already got plenty of fuzz options. So, my quest for a Mk I (and just-slightly-lesser interest in a Mk II) have led me to "just build the damn thing right". No bells and whistles, just get a set of Ge transistors. So, I'm going to back-burner that for a while until I actually source a set and then get to work around the transistors, whichever I can get my hands on. Small Bear seems pretty lean on options at the moment, so we'll see.

And to bring things full circle, eventually I'll try to acquire the specific parts I need for an FZ-1, as well.

Now, with those specifics updated, there's more!

Fuzzjunkie, thank you for taking the time. Your connecting the dots between the One Knob Fuzz and the 2-transistor silicon Vox Tonebender circuit helped things click into focus. I've never really done a deep dive into Tone Benders because they just weren't within my grasp. All your info has really helped clarify things beyond "Mk I, Mk 1.5, Mk II". I didn't realize there were so many branches to that family tree. It also led me to the Vox Distortion Booster plugin that was apparently used on White Light/White Heat, so I'm down to experiment with that one too.

I was completely unaware of the Selmer Buzztone, and digging a little further turned up that the Hofner Buzztone seems to be the silicon variant. I'm super intrigued by that one (the early PF vibes are groovy), and it's pretty high on the build list. I'm still poking around for more on the Zonk II, and am going to sit down today to learn more from that Joe Gore comparison. Thanks for all this fantastic stuff to work with.

And I realize this isn't another forum or even the DIY thread, but I mean, you fine folks here made this build list possible:

Image

The "Druid Fuzz" is just a Bazz Fuss my wife liked on bass with green LED clipping and a green on/off light. The "Shake Fuzz" is a copy of the one I keep on my board with 1n914 and red LED clipping options. A friend of mine (name redacted) liked it, so I built one for him to mess with. Once I had the list and the parts, it was just a matter of picking a project and going for it - even doing an extra Fuzzrite to leave at the practice space.

Therefore, I blame all of YOU for the newest list:

Image

And of course it happens. After two decades of nasty silicon buzz/fuzz through Superfuzzes and FY-2s, the week I turn 40 I build a Fuzz Face.

And just last night, I ordered a few batches of BC108Bs and BC108Cs to go through and sort by hFe. Ostensibly for the Hofner and OKFs, but we all know I'm going to try to fine-tune a classic Fuzz Face with them.

... and IT WILL HAPPEN TO YOUUUUU TOO!

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Re: Shadows Of Knight fuzz?

Post by sholkham » Mon May 23, 2022 10:39 am

lol, this thread has got me looking for my breadboard too.
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Re: Shadows Of Knight fuzz?

Post by hulakatt » Mon May 23, 2022 10:41 am

I have a One Knob Fuzz from DoesItDoom? and just got in one from Colorsound. I love the DoesItDoom one and I need to find the time to plug into the Colorsound one.
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Re: Shadows Of Knight fuzz?

Post by blacktiger » Sun Aug 21, 2022 1:36 pm

fuzzjunkie wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 12:39 pm
Oh sure, Vox teamed up with Thomas Organ because they couldn’t keep up with US demand for British Invasion sounds. To build more amps with higher margins, Thomas pushed Vox into making transistor based amps. The 7-series amps were hybrids with transistor preamps and tube power amps, and then the switch was made to full transistors. I think with the Super Beatles, but maybe the Conqueror. Not 100% sure about that part of Vox history myself.

The fuzz circuits are all the same 2 transistor design though. They’re just incorporated differently into the different models. Some have the fuzz before the preamp and others have it baked into the middle, and most are preset without any controls for tone or volume. Just on or off. That and different speakers account for most of the tonal differences between them, I think.

The circuit is in the Fuzz Face family, basically a silicon version of the Tonebender Mk1.5. Similar to the Italian Vox 2 transistor silicon Tonebender and the Vox Distortion Booster.

The Colorsound One Knob Fuzz is the circuit in pedal form, and there are a number of clones; Lumpy’s Electric Majik, Casteldine’s Magical Mystery Box, I think the Jext Telez is another. JHS or Keeley probably has a clone as well.

Even if the Nuggets type garage bands didn’t use Vox amps, they probably used the Italian made Vox Tonebenders that are basically the same thing with just a part adjustment here or there because the transistor values are different.
Thomas Organ we’re distributors, then, when Vox couldn’t keep up with demand, they started building their own amps, initially under the guidance of Dick Denney, but I think they basically went off on their own at a certain point. The UK and US solid state amps were completely different lines. You can tell which ones are the American ones, because they have the most British sounding names.
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Re: Shadows Of Knight fuzz?

Post by Nudger » Tue Feb 21, 2023 2:40 pm

MrShake wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 11:31 am


So... maybe I had fuzz on the brain already, but I built a Fuzzrite between the first post and this one. Finished it a couple hours ago.

Image

Image


What's your favorite kind of fuzz that might have gotten those Nuggets sounds? And do you use a modern variant that gets you to the "same" sound a different way than vintage-spec?
How did I miss this!
Big nuggets/pebbles nut here..
I only got a fiew pedals, only 2 fuzzes now.
A kimbara (shin ei fy2)
And a mosrite clone I built from a kit.
Had another mosrite clone "one ton bee" but my build blew it away!
Would love to nail that shadows.. fuzz sound.
Was wondering why, as cool as the sounds were I was getting through fender twin.. The fuzz didnt sound as "Buzz sawish" as my heroes from those comps?
For what its worth, when I play the mosrite while using a vox wah as a boost, I can get some good raspy vintagey fuzz.
I quit trying to nail an exact sound from any particular sixties punker, dont think ive achieved it once but get a kick outa getting ballpark fuzz noises.
Image

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Re: Shadows Of Knight fuzz?

Post by hulakatt » Wed Feb 22, 2023 12:39 pm

IS your "fuzzrite" bright and buzzy or dark and raspy? There were 2 different versions of the Mosrite fuzzRITE and I've played pedals based off of each, they sound wildly different from each other.
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Re: Shadows Of Knight fuzz?

Post by Nudger » Wed Feb 22, 2023 1:29 pm

hulakatt wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 12:39 pm
IS your "fuzzrite" bright and buzzy or dark and raspy?
Check youtube "GMR fuzzbite handwired fuzz pedal"

They still sell kits on ebay UK

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