I guess we should talk about "Is Old Music Killing New Music"

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Larry Mal
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I guess we should talk about "Is Old Music Killing New Music"

Post by Larry Mal » Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:57 am

Not sure if anyone has read this article yet:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... ic/621339/

Probably a lot of you have.

"Old songs now represent 70 percent of the U.S. music market, according to the latest numbers from MRC Data, a music-analytics firm. Those who make a living from new music—especially that endangered species known as the working musician—should look at these figures with fear and trembling. But the news gets worse: The new-music market is actually shrinking. All the growth in the market is coming from old songs.

The 200 most popular new tracks now regularly account for less than 5 percent of total streams. That rate was twice as high just three years ago. The mix of songs actually purchased by consumers is even more tilted toward older music. The current list of most-downloaded tracks on iTunes is filled with the names of bands from the previous century, such as Creedence Clearwater Revival and The Police."


Now, there's nothing wrong with listening to old music, I basically always have.

But something is very wrong in music these days. The internet has permanently changed the way that music is sold and marketed, not to mention how it's paid for and bought. The financial incentives with new music just aren't there like they used to be.

This is a big subject, of course, so I'm just throwing out some taking points.

But we keep seeing some really big names from the Boomer/classic rock era selling their entire catalogs to big music companies, I think Bruce Springsteen was one of the most recent. The amounts they sell this catalog for is huge.

You almost have to wonder if the big media conglomerates are comfortable paying this amount because they know that they can control the market to the point where they won't have to worry about whether or not anyone in a generation gives a shit about The Boss. Kind of like how diamonds aren't rare and are only valuable because of artificial scarcity.

Regardless, something is going on. It's a little big bigger than Baby Boomers just never listening to any new music past 1988 or something.

But what's going on?
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Re: I guess we should talk about "Is Old Music Killing New Music"

Post by marqueemoon » Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:20 am

I caught this in passing on the TV at work, thanks for posting the link.

Feel like I should read the article before commenting in depth, but my first reaction is this is trash and a great example of how the music industry has given up.

That said I think new music is alive and well in some circles and for the purposes of reporting like this is completely off the radar (TikTok, Soundcloud, etc…).

Also, algorithms are at play. You pick something old and it suggests other old stuff. It’s having the same destructive influence on politics. Oh, you like this? Here’s a bunch more!

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Re: I guess we should talk about "Is Old Music Killing New Music"

Post by sal paradise » Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:23 am

He kills his own argument fairly early on here:

“Only songs released in the past 18 months get classified as “new” in the MRC database, so people could conceivably be listening to a lot of two-year-old songs, rather than 60-year-old ones.”

I’m sure he knows more than me about the mainstream music market. Not sure what use the anecdotal ‘young people listening to old music’ added to the article.

What he doesn’t seem to look into at all is music in apps, games, videos etc- the media that young people are consuming in droves.

Also, bands nowadays don’t make money from streaming or physical sales. Well known for a long time. Money is in touring, merch, more merch, sponsorships & other ventures.
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Re: I guess we should talk about "Is Old Music Killing New Music"

Post by JSett » Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:03 am

I think a more accurate title would be:

"Is Old Mainstream Music is Killing New Mainstream Music"

...as the independent music scenes are thriving. Sure, they've all got day jobs still between tours, but I go see hundreds of bands a year (pre-covid) that would be classified as 'New' music.
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Re: I guess we should talk about "Is Old Music Killing New Music"

Post by stevejamsecono » Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:13 am

It's gonna get more interesting in about 15 years when at last the prime FM radio crowd starts to die in droves, because they are the last thing really keeping that industry hanging on. I think once that's happened and the "Claaaaasic ROCK on WKRW THE KROW... It's ZEPTEMBER so we're gonna be gettin the Led out for the next two hour jam packed solid block of ROCKKKK" thing loses it's audience entirely.

Musicians seemingly have figured out what to do (i.e. basically going back to being the independent contractors they always were pre-recorded music), so that's promising, although it'd be great if there was a way to make all that streaming revenue work for them better.
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Re: I guess we should talk about "Is Old Music Killing New Music"

Post by shoule79 » Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:25 pm

I mean, there is a lot more content in the last 60-70 years vs the last two, so that large of a back catalogue would be over represented, don't you think? And older people are going to gravitate to what they know. The worlds a mess and people want comfort listening.

The music industry doesn't really do themselves any favors either. When I hear my local terrestrial radio once or twice a year, the medium that used to be for selling music to the Boomer/Gen X crowd, the people who are still conditioned to buy music, it was all the same playlist that they had 20 years ago. Same artists, same songs, same reason I just listen to my own music on my iPod in the car.

I wonder if this trend applies to country music. I hate modern bro country with a passion. Like, hate hate it. Friends who are into it always have some new singer or group they love or are on the radio. I avoid listening to it like the plague, but could probably name new country artists in a 10:1 ratio vs mainstream rock groups. That genre must/may be doing something right. I have streamed Fancy Like for friends dozens of times though because I have to show them how bad it is.

You've always had to keep your ear to the ground to find new music you connect with. Be it searching streaming platforms, social media echo chambers, or going out to see shows (when we were/are able to), or just reading zines (or what ever their online equivalent is). I still do that, and pick up new music from time to time. I think its easier to do that when you are young and your still forming as a person, and have the time. With new music I I do find that in my old age I pick out influences more easily than when I was young, and a lot of new music feels been there done that, so I just go listen to the original influence.

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Re: I guess we should talk about "Is Old Music Killing New Music"

Post by marqueemoon » Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:03 pm

Ok. I read it. Pretty much made all of the expected points.

The mainstream music industry has been clueless for decades.

Certainly not the first time we’ve seen this phenomenon. What did people buy when CDs first hit the scene? Old shit.

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Re: I guess we should talk about "Is Old Music Killing New Music"

Post by Larry Mal » Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:53 pm

marqueemoon wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:03 pm
Ok. I read it. Pretty much made all of the expected points.

The mainstream music industry has been clueless for decades.

Certainly not the first time we’ve seen this phenomenon. What did people buy when CDs first hit the scene? Old shit.
I think it says a lot about the music industry, which basically has always had a hard time selling music to other than Boomers. There's some real cultural stagnation there.

However, assuming the points in this article are correct, they have somehow persuaded people from other generations that Boomer music is as good as it gets.

As guitarists, we've seen this before- the bulk of us play instruments that are marketed towards and popular with Boomers. I've made this point ad nauseam on this forum, but there's a reason why a lot of our instruments debuted in the 50's and were made popular by Boomer guitar players.

And maybe the same thing has happened with music.

I remember some years ago a woman I worked with was playing some Bad Company. I see that she was born in 1988. I am stunned to think that she would have really even heard Bad Company, you know?
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.

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Re: I guess we should talk about "Is Old Music Killing New Music"

Post by marqueemoon » Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:04 pm

Larry Mal wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:53 pm
marqueemoon wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:03 pm
Ok. I read it. Pretty much made all of the expected points.

The mainstream music industry has been clueless for decades.

Certainly not the first time we’ve seen this phenomenon. What did people buy when CDs first hit the scene? Old shit.
I think it says a lot about the music industry, which basically has always had a hard time selling music to other than Boomers. There's some real cultural stagnation there.

However, assuming the points in this article are correct, they have somehow persuaded people from other generations that Boomer music is as good as it gets.

As guitarists, we've seen this before- the bulk of us play instruments that are marketed towards and popular with Boomers. I've made this point ad nauseam on this forum, but there's a reason why a lot of our instruments debuted in the 50's and were made popular by Boomer guitar players.

And maybe the same thing has happened with music.

I remember some years ago a woman I worked with was playing some Bad Company. I see that she was born in 1988. I am stunned to think that she would have really even heard Bad Company, you know?
Yep. As a Gen Xer I’m keenly aware of this shit.

Many of my favorite bands from back in the day have reunited for a cash-in. Pavement, Jawbox, write some new stuff like Versus did and I will buy a ticket.

As a musician I want to see fellow musicians play new material they are excited about. That’s where the magic is.

Despite all the Boomer nostalgia around it picking up an electric guitar was an act of rebellion for me. I was tired of the rigors of classical violin where improvising was actively discouraged.

Rock music veered towards that level of stagnation a while ago, and it became crystal clear when my son took drum lessons at School of Rock. It’s repertoire shit at this point.

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Re: I guess we should talk about "Is Old Music Killing New Music"

Post by tatotateman » Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:01 am

How many orchestra performances are of music written in the last 75 years? I think over time you just build up a body of work that's good, and to squeeze into that cannon you have to really stand out above everything that's already out there.

The novelty of being something new may get you a couple listens, but the novelty wears off, and only a handful of stuff is interesting enough to listen to a couple years later.

Time filters out the less interesting stuff from any time period. If you're comparing the best 1% of rock music to everything that's been released in the last 18 months, you're going to think modern music is garbage. How much of what you listened to 20-30 years ago do you still put on today?

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Re: I guess we should talk about "Is Old Music Killing New Music"

Post by marqueemoon » Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:57 am

tatotateman wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:01 am
How many orchestra performances are of music written in the last 75 years? I think over time you just build up a body of work that's good, and to squeeze into that cannon you have to really stand out above everything that's already out there.

The novelty of being something new may get you a couple listens, but the novelty wears off, and only a handful of stuff is interesting enough to listen to a couple years later.

Time filters out the less interesting stuff from any time period. If you're comparing the best 1% of rock music to everything that's been released in the last 18 months, you're going to think modern music is garbage. How much of what you listened to 20-30 years ago do you still put on today?
Don’t fully agree with this. In my cultural context seeking out new music is a young person’s game.

There’s social capital in knowing cool new music that goes away when one hits a certain age. Life happens and suddenly you realize you haven’t bought a record in years.

There are many guitar players of a certain age on this forum, myself included who regularly listen to 20 -30 year old music. Not “classic rock”, just music of our youth that we don’t cringe about.

I have used Spotify to explore a lot of older stuff, but generally off the beaten path artists I’ve been curious about and missed out on. I feel like I end up really liking these older artists at about the same rate as newer ones I check out.

I do agree that when new music comes out in some sense it’s in competition with everything else that’s been done in the history of recorded music, and when recommendations are crowdsourced that puts new artists at an immediate disadvantage.

As a musician this shit is disheartening, but as a music fan I know the good stuff is out there and easier to find than ever.

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Re: I guess we should talk about "Is Old Music Killing New Music"

Post by DeathJag » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:23 am

Having instant access to all music genres from essentially the beginning of recorded musical history as we have now, all new music is now instantly compared to it. It doesn’t compare well. Pop music gets consumed by a younger demographic, and then goes away. I remember listening to the radio as a child in the early 80s for a certain song to come on, because I didn’t have the record. In those days you had to save up to buy the record, or have a friend who was able to tape it for you. Now when a new song comes out, it’s easy to go back and listen to the stuff that it reminds you of. Then you realize that the older stuff is way better, rinse, repeat.

That’s pop music. Independent genres are thriving! You know, genres that never made that much money in the first place. David Gedge does not have planes and never will, but he is an independent superstar, for example. I listen and play surf music, and I know for a fact that that’s not going anywhere. It hasn’t been a money or fame driven genre since 1964 and it’s doing just fine.

Hey I wonder if this is happening with country? Country music used to be so much better before the 80s. I hated it before, but after then it makes me nauseous.

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Re: I guess we should talk about "Is Old Music Killing New Music"

Post by Larry Mal » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:34 am

Good thoughts.

It's true that rock and roll probably has a more or less set canon of work these days. I don't know that it's an evolving or progressing art form any more, and if it is not, then you would expect exactly what we are seeing.
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Re: I guess we should talk about "Is Old Music Killing New Music"

Post by seenoevil II » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:56 am

I mean life is ending. Why wouldn't that be reflected in our music consumption.

Incoming word gumbo. Take this all with a planet of salt. I only have anecdotes, vague vibes, and strawmen for evidence. I'm kinda just thinking "out loud" here.

Being into music is in itself far more a niche interest than it was before. It's more of a utility than a form of identity expression or exploration. Notice how Playlists are often named after what they're good for. Studying, fucking, exercising, getting high. The user doesn't need to know enough music to know what would be good in these contexts, they just put on the Playlist. They didn't discover the artist first. They have no ownership over the music. They didn't find an artist and think "I love this, this would vibe so great with. " The music is just there. It's a mere tool. It doesn't matter that you have no taste in music. Taste in music isn't really a salient concept in the way and degree it was to us.

Younger people compartmentalize hard when it comes to music. Socializing, dancing, partying, that's all done to hard trap or EDM, maybe some of the more flexible mainstream pop, hip-hop types. For contemplative, emotional times it's sob-story 4 chord loop music played on a synthesizer if you're not white, a ukulele if you're a teenager or a mustang with reverb if you're white and not a teenager.

Streaming has changed everything. The past is truly forever present. The linear conveyer belt of artistic progress is replaced by an ever expanding 3D universe of work with the new music forever on the margins fighting to fall into relevance at the center where the past forever awaits it.

Broadcast is over, but broadcast was important for orienting ourselves to the world. I remember watching VH1s countdown and Total Requst Live religiously with my friends and siblings despite hating every last bit of music they played. It was the stream, the river, the main stream. A north star against which all other orientations were measured. The source was known. And it was known to be from other people. A room full of screaming teenagers and an important looking handsome man told you from a publicly placed speaking box what everyone else was enjoying.

It was a shared experience. And there were tribes. The rock station told you disco sucks and lured you to the Zepplin concert. The Disco station invited you to a party to dance or else provided a live DJ set for you to play at your own party. Later, music videos provided visual aids to tell you how to dress like a pop princess or a mall punk or an emo kid. Even if it all seemed ridiculous to you, you were experiencing it together, in real time.

Now, everything is available all the time. You have to discover even the ludicrously popular music for your self, by yourself. Carson Daily is now a thoughtless algorithm who waits for whenever it's conventient for you to whisper in your ear that Drake has a new album out.

What you listen to is no longer an indicator of your tribe. So, it's that much less important. There's no TRL for you to react to. It no longer matters if you like Nelly, or prefer Mandy Moore or are furious that Green Day has sold out even more than they originally did.

No surprise that young people are now looking to other things to align their tribal instincts with. Identity based on gender, orientation, politics, mental health diagnosis are all surging. When I was in high-school, we didn't concern ourselves with whether you experienced aesthetic attraction or sexual attraction. But it was very important if you wore studded belts or preferred Fall Out Boy or Paramore.

So, if music is just a tool. An emotional regulator. A garnish on other moments. If it doesn't really say anything about who you are in the world. Why not listen to Stevie Nicks? Why not listen to "Harness Your Hopes" as opposed to Crooken Rain Crooked Rain or Malkmus's new albums, or one of the million current bands he's influenced.
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Re: I guess we should talk about "Is Old Music Killing New Music"

Post by panoramic » Mon Jan 31, 2022 12:04 pm

marqueemoon wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:03 pm
Ok. I read it. Pretty much made all of the expected points.

The mainstream music industry has been clueless for decades.

Certainly not the first time we’ve seen this phenomenon. What did people buy when CDs first hit the scene? Old shit.
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