Is loud guitar-based music destined to be "throwback" music from here outwards?

Favorite new record? Favorite old record? Got a band? Post it here.
Post Reply
User avatar
mbene085
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 6426
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 5:07 am

Re: Is loud guitar-based music destined to be "throwback" music from here outwards?

Post by mbene085 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:15 pm

Never heard of Yvette Young. Just had a listen. A lot of it just sounded like if Joe Satriani was born in Gen Z and started a prog rock band instead of the instrumental hair metal of his era. Talented for sure, but not really reinventing much.

User avatar
Larry Mal
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 16054
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:25 pm
Location: Saint Louis, MO

Re: Is loud guitar-based music destined to be "throwback" music from here outwards?

Post by Larry Mal » Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:47 pm

Veitchy wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:01 am
BoringPostcards wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:21 pm
Bass is in a different boat though. The electric bass is everywhere and isn't always sufficiently replaced by synths. Bass killed the tuba, but it will take a lot to kill the bass.
I think I understand what you mean by this (electric bass was able to cover a lot of the bottom end as big bands evolved into smaller combos?) but could you please expand on this?

I'll jump in on this by sharing this video.

I like that series, and in this particular episode you can see the evolution of how people tried to make instruments that were capable of playing low notes. It wasn't very easy for them to do. That video might make things a little more clear as to why.

But yeah, the bass guitar was a revolution, although you might really more accurately call it the bass amp revolution more than anything else. The bass guitar doesn't really make all that much sound and when you try and make an acoustic instrument out of it it's a total failure*, the bass guitar is really just a good way to get bass notes to the amplifier.

But all of a sudden amplified bass notes were a thing, and that really outcompeted what the double bass and certainly the tuba could do. The piano is another strong instrument for bass lines, however the bass guitar and amplifier were easy to play and portable, also very versatile as it turns out.



*Before any of you says anything about those fucking acoustic guitar basses, it's not 1996 anymore, and you aren't watching Spin Doctors on MTV Unpluggged, and it's well past time to admit that those things fucking sucked. Just stop it. Your friends hate it when you make them listen to you play that and you should be ashamed of yourself.
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.

User avatar
s_mcsleazy
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 16107
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:30 am
Location: glasgow

Re: Is loud guitar-based music destined to be "throwback" music from here outwards?

Post by s_mcsleazy » Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:49 am

Larry Mal wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:47 pm




*Before any of you says anything about those fucking acoustic guitar basses, it's not 1996 anymore, and you aren't watching Spin Doctors on MTV Unpluggged, and it's well past time to admit that those things fucking sucked. Just stop it. Your friends hate it when you make them listen to you play that and you should be ashamed of yourself.
thank god someone said it. both acoustic basses and mtv unplugged. honestly, i played acoustic bass in high school orchestra because apparently electric bass was too overpowering. i'd get lost the second low brass came in. we had a teacher (who was also our conductor) always say "can you play lighter sleazy?" i wanted to see if she noticed if i didn't play at all. afterwards she said "wow, you sounded great in that last performance" honestly, when it's been asked i play one in the past, i always say "you don't want that, you think you want it but you don't"

as for mtv unplugged, maybe 1/20 of those songs worked like that but honestly, most of them just fell flat on it's face. i know everyone always talks about nirvana unplugged as the standout but half of that album is covers.
offset guitars resident bass player.
'Are you trying to seduce me Mrs Robinson? Or do you just want me to solder a couple of resistors into your Muff?'

User avatar
mbene085
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 6426
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 5:07 am

Re: Is loud guitar-based music destined to be "throwback" music from here outwards?

Post by mbene085 » Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:37 pm

s_mcsleazy wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:49 am
thank god someone said it. both acoustic basses and mtv unplugged. honestly, i played acoustic bass in high school orchestra because apparently electric bass was too overpowering. i'd get lost the second low brass came in. we had a teacher (who was also our conductor) always say "can you play lighter sleazy?" i wanted to see if she noticed if i didn't play at all. afterwards she said "wow, you sounded great in that last performance" honestly, when it's been asked i play one in the past, i always say "you don't want that, you think you want it but you don't"

as for mtv unplugged, maybe 1/20 of those songs worked like that but honestly, most of them just fell flat on it's face. i know everyone always talks about nirvana unplugged as the standout but half of that album is covers.
All good points here. Also, the irony of the Unplugged stuff is that it was all recorded with hideously bad-sounding piezo pickups that are no more acoustic in nature than a stratocaster.

The most pleasant tone to come from a guitar in any "unplugged" performance was from Nirvana simply because they used an electric guitar rig with an acoustic playing host to the pickup for show. I can't listen to the plasticky pinging sound of guitars recorded via undersaddle piezo pickups, it's among the most hideous sonic trends in the history of electrified music, or at least when it's used to approximate acoustic guitars for live shows. It's been used as an aesthetic choice in R&B for a long time but that's a tiny fraction of the recorded piezo guitars of the world.

User avatar
jorri
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 1:53 am
Location: bath, UK
Contact:

Re: Is loud guitar-based music destined to be "throwback" music from here outwards?

Post by jorri » Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:10 pm

mbene085 wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:37 pm
s_mcsleazy wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:49 am
thank god someone said it. both acoustic basses and mtv unplugged. honestly, i played acoustic bass in high school orchestra because apparently electric bass was too overpowering. i'd get lost the second low brass came in. we had a teacher (who was also our conductor) always say "can you play lighter sleazy?" i wanted to see if she noticed if i didn't play at all. afterwards she said "wow, you sounded great in that last performance" honestly, when it's been asked i play one in the past, i always say "you don't want that, you think you want it but you don't"

as for mtv unplugged, maybe 1/20 of those songs worked like that but honestly, most of them just fell flat on it's face. i know everyone always talks about nirvana unplugged as the standout but half of that album is covers.
All good points here. Also, the irony of the Unplugged stuff is that it was all recorded with hideously bad-sounding piezo pickups that are no more acoustic in nature than a stratocaster.

The most pleasant tone to come from a guitar in any "unplugged" performance was from Nirvana simply because they used an electric guitar rig with an acoustic playing host to the pickup for show. I can't listen to the plasticky pinging sound of guitars recorded via undersaddle piezo pickups, it's among the most hideous sonic trends in the history of electrified music, or at least when it's used to approximate acoustic guitars for live shows. It's been used as an aesthetic choice in R&B for a long time but that's a tiny fraction of the recorded piezo guitars of the world.
I always loved that sound, the sound (especially when in a full band) where it is like you may as well be playing a metal table with a plectrum. ah, the 90s. :-X :-X

But of course sarcasm, so remembering guitar had low mids and how that sounds awesome.

User avatar
Larry Mal
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 16054
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:25 pm
Location: Saint Louis, MO

Re: Is loud guitar-based music destined to be "throwback" music from here outwards?

Post by Larry Mal » Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:38 pm

Yeah, right? I bought a Taylor 410 from the 90s and I didn't know it had a pickup in there, so I plugged it in and was like, oh, right. This sound sucks.

I hate under saddle pickups and have pulled them out of eight acoustics so far.
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.

User avatar
mbene085
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 6426
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 5:07 am

Re: Is loud guitar-based music destined to be "throwback" music from here outwards?

Post by mbene085 » Fri Jan 01, 2021 7:05 pm

Larry Mal wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:38 pm
Yeah, right? I bought a Taylor 410 from the 90s and I didn't know it had a pickup in there, so I plugged it in and was like, oh, right. This sound sucks.

I hate under saddle pickups and have pulled them out of eight acoustics so far.
This is getting a little off topic, but when I was doing wedding gigs as an instrumental fingerstyle guitarist in the "before times", the single greatest piece of gear I ever used was the Fishman Aura Spectrum DI. It's like a Kemper Profiler for acoustic guitars. They'd take guitars into a studio and produce "images" with different microphones by comparing the mic'd signal to the DI from a Fishman UST (undersaddle transducer for those not used to acoustic guitar lingo).

The idea isn't to make your guitar sound like multiple other guitars, but rather to select the image that most closely matches your instrument and stick with it (e.g. a spruce and rosewood dreadnought from a smaller maker would probably match best with a Martin D28 image from Fishman). They even offered a custom service where you ship your personal guitar to them and they create an image just for you with your specific guitar and pickup to ensure maximum realism, but I'm not sure how many people took them up on that offer.

It absolutely does add back in about 75% of the realism that is lost when using a piezo pickup with an acoustic guitar. I've tried soundboard transducers, magnetic sound hole pickups, multisource systems with internal mics, the Taylor expression system - and nothing sounds remotely as good for amplifying an acoustic at high SPL as a plain, awful piezo UST and an Aura Spectrum DI. It doesn't even cost more than most quality DIs you'd get for an acoustic guitar for the EQ and compression (compression being absolutely essential for taking the disgusting plasticky transients out of a piezo signal).

But listen to that video. It's really that simple. You load up as many of those images as you want, try them out with your guitars and make note of which one sounds most accurate for fingerpicking, for strumming, etc, and delete the others. Some of the images sound hideous but that's just because they're not a good match - the good ones sound really good and you only need the one (though I like to get granular and have a couple options optimized for different play styles).

You're never going to use it in a studio but when going to gigs and wanting your guitar to sound recognizably like a guitar I've never experienced anything like it. And since everything comes with shitty piezos anyway, it means you either have one already or can get one easily enough.

There's a small acoustic tradeoff from sticking something between your saddle and bridge plate, but if you're gigging with an acoustic guitar you have to accept that putting anything on or in it is a compromise already. I got a foldable carbon fiber guitar from a company called Journey that fits under seats and in overheads and is totally immune to humidity and temperature changes and used that for gigging - it has a decent acoustic tone on its own and sounds legit amplified with the Fishman. It lets my nice acoustics just be acoustic.

Having a folding carbon fiber guitar solved every problem I ever had as a gigging guitarist. It also enabled me to duct tape a ring box without fear to the inside of the guitar to sneak it to Hawaii when I was proposing because it was the only place my then-girlfriend would be guaranteed not to find it. I always keep extremely close tabs on the guitar when traveling anyway so she didn't think anything was up with me clutching it for dear life the whole way there.

I think this is pretty off topic even from where I started but I'll bring it back around and say I think it was pretty rock & roll to use a guitar to smuggle a ring. I also proposed in the form of a song on stage while we were there but that's a story for another time and thread.

User avatar
CivoLee
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:22 pm

Re: Is loud guitar-based music destined to be "throwback" music from here outwards?

Post by CivoLee » Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:49 pm

Wow, this thread has really grown since I pretty much abandoned it...and yea, rich white guys have no right to pretend they're anything but that lyrically. That's always been one of the things I've had to reconcile my love of Les Pauls and PRS Custom 24s (the Fender Jazzmaster is actually my number 3 guitar, but all three are very close) with...

User avatar
HedonismBot
PAT PEND
PAT PEND
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:14 am

Re: Is loud guitar-based music destined to be "throwback" music from here outwards?

Post by HedonismBot » Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:04 pm

Enjoyed reading everyone's posts! Loud guitar-centered music is just not sitting well with the Z-ers. For the generation that grew up with I-phones and I-pads in their hands - a standard set of guitar, bass, and drums just doesn't do the trick anymore. Well, it can if there is enough stuff going on to keep that short attention span busy (chorus, reverb, delay, multi-channel looper and what not + toying with some semi-forgotten music genre (or three) + of course, some poppy catchy vocals). And I understand the bands that play music like this: it makes sense, it's hard to try and invent something new in this day and age. Don't get me wrong, there are a few contemporary musicians / bands that I sorta like that fit this description. I keep coming back again and again to very few, though. Yvette Young is clearly very talented and I enjoy her music. But what did she invent that Don Caballero didn't already do in the 90s? I have to admit that I kind of dig Mac Demarco. Nothing new either, really, but what buys me in is his chill demeanor and his sense of humor. If you know you can't invent something brand new, why not just relax and have fun. I feel like many young guitarists feel under pressure to sound unique and that's why many of them actually end up sounding like that other guy. As Charles Bukowski said, don't TRY.

P.S.: Not trying to attack anyone here. By the way, I'm a millennial (paints a target on his chest).
Last edited by HedonismBot on Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
HedonismBot
PAT PEND
PAT PEND
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:14 am

Re: Is loud guitar-based music destined to be "throwback" music from here outwards?

Post by HedonismBot » Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:23 pm

P.P.S.: Loud guitar music seems to be gradually dying out. In modern (fusion overkill) music guitar seems to occupy the niche of just one of the many things in the mix rather than the main thing (when it is involved at all). But who knows.. the pendulum, eventually, may swing in the opposite direction.

User avatar
BoringPostcards
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 5716
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:50 am
Location: Newfoundland

Re: Is loud guitar-based music destined to be "throwback" music from here outwards?

Post by BoringPostcards » Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:27 am

s_mcsleazy wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:49 am
Larry Mal wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:47 pm




*Before any of you says anything about those fucking acoustic guitar basses, it's not 1996 anymore, and you aren't watching Spin Doctors on MTV Unpluggged, and it's well past time to admit that those things fucking sucked. Just stop it. Your friends hate it when you make them listen to you play that and you should be ashamed of yourself.
thank god someone said it. both acoustic basses and mtv unplugged. honestly, i played acoustic bass in high school orchestra because apparently electric bass was too overpowering. i'd get lost the second low brass came in. we had a teacher (who was also our conductor) always say "can you play lighter sleazy?" i wanted to see if she noticed if i didn't play at all. afterwards she said "wow, you sounded great in that last performance" honestly, when it's been asked i play one in the past, i always say "you don't want that, you think you want it but you don't"

as for mtv unplugged, maybe 1/20 of those songs worked like that but honestly, most of them just fell flat on it's face. i know everyone always talks about nirvana unplugged as the standout but half of that album is covers.
Alice in Chains unplugged worked well (the acoustic version of Sludge Factory is great), as did Pearl Jam and Stone Temple Pilots. Whether or not you like those bands is subjective, but those three bands sound absolutely fine unplugged.
Nirvana, not so much. All the others worked to varying degrees. I am sure Clapton fans loved his show.
I agree nearly 100% about the acoustic bass. They are useless for playing live, and are mostly useless in studio. A really good one will sound good mic'd. They have a unique tone, but aren't loud at all, and as others have said, Piezo is a shitshow that will not give you the natural sound of the instrument.
They are fantastic for practice and late night playing though, and I will never sell my Tanglewood for those reasons. Mine has a nice rich and woody timbre.

Edited some typos. Friggin phoneposting...
Det er mig der holder træerne sammen.
Every aspect of life is a two-sided coin. No matter how you flip it.

User avatar
BoringPostcards
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 5716
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:50 am
Location: Newfoundland

Re: Is loud guitar-based music destined to be "throwback" music from here outwards?

Post by BoringPostcards » Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:50 am

CivoLee wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:49 pm
Wow, this thread has really grown since I pretty much abandoned it...
Yea, some of us oldheads tend to hang out in controversial threads for weeks and shoot shit, both on and off topic until a good discussion kicks off in another thread somewhere.
This particular topic is a deep one, if you consider all angles.
100% agreed on the whole "rich white dude sings black music about growing up poor with no friends or allies to back him up" thing.
That has never sat well with me, even long before I was mature enough to understand and discuss social rights and freedoms.
Fake is fake. No matter what genre or skin tone. Fronting is fronting.
Det er mig der holder træerne sammen.
Every aspect of life is a two-sided coin. No matter how you flip it.

User avatar
BoringPostcards
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 5716
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:50 am
Location: Newfoundland

Re: Is loud guitar-based music destined to be "throwback" music from here outwards?

Post by BoringPostcards » Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:55 am

HedonismBot wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:04 pm
Enjoyed reading everyone's posts! Loud guitar-centered music is just not sitting well with the Z-ers. For the generation that grew up with I-phones and I-pads in their hands - a standard set of guitar, bass, and drums just doesn't do the trick anymore. Well, it can if there is enough stuff going on to keep that short attention span busy (chorus, reverb, delay, multi-channel looper and what not + toying with some semi-forgotten music genre (or three) + of course, some poppy catchy vocals). And I understand the bands that play music like this: it makes sense, it's hard to try and invent something new in this day and age. Don't get me wrong, there are a few contemporary musicians / bands that I sorta like that fit this description. I keep coming back again and again to very few, though. Yvette Young is clearly very talented and I enjoy her music. But what did she invent that Don Caballero didn't already do in the early 90s? I have to admit that I kind of dig Mac Demarco. Nothing new either, really, but what buys me in is his chill demeanor and his sense of humor. If you know you can't invent something brand new, why not just relax and have fun. I feel like many young guitarists feel under pressure to sound unique and that's why many of them actually end up sounding like that other guy. As Charles Bukowski said, don't TRY.

P.S.: Not trying to attack anyone here. By the way, I'm a millennial (paints a target on his chest).
All very good points, especially the bit about the modern day attention spans and modern guitarists like Yvette Young's usage of near invisible past genres like math rock, post rock and prog.
Ani DiFranco was a big name in the past. Some of her output was phenomenal. Much of it is too political for me. Her style employed tapping and piano style.
Kaki King was doing way more impressive and musical guitar playing a decade or more ago, and she is hardly noticed. Her music has a lot of feel to it. Her track titled "Doing the Wrong Thing" is one of the most stunningly beautiful pieces of guitar playing, I have ever heard. It is ridiculously hard to play, yet sounds beautiful and not at all cerebral. She is similar to Don Ross, but also very very different. She uses tapping, piano style, open tunings and third bridge techniques a la Lee Ranaldo/Glenn Branca. All without being very cerebral.
I don't feel much listening to Covet. It is way too cerebral like Pat Metheny. Metheny's best album had John Scofield all over it to rescue it with real melodies.
Det er mig der holder træerne sammen.
Every aspect of life is a two-sided coin. No matter how you flip it.

User avatar
mbene085
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 6426
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 5:07 am

Re: Is loud guitar-based music destined to be "throwback" music from here outwards?

Post by mbene085 » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:26 am

I hadn't thought about that - the attention span. My wife is three years younger than me and she has a sister who is 11 years younger than her who is my only real window into Gen Z and that is absolutely spot on.

I was always an anomaly of a Millennial because I enjoyed things like listening to full albums and dedicating my full attention to the music I was listening to, but it's a whole other level with the next generation. Getting her to listen to a full song is a challenge, and I'm not joking about that. By the time the first chorus is done, she's basically squirming and ready to do something else, even if she actually likes the song. She's the Tik Tok generation and is used to swiping through a new audiovisual experience every 15 seconds.

I can only get her to listen to a new song if it has an accompanying video. It just becomes background music to her instantly otherwise.

User avatar
DeathJag
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 739
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:44 am

Re: Is loud guitar-based music destined to be "throwback" music from here outwards?

Post by DeathJag » Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:23 am

I was talking to a friend recently and I ended up forming a prediction. Due to pandemic lack of human interaction in general, when it’s over there will be a renaissance of live performances. Dance, Improv comedy, small theater, big theater, art shows, and of course tons and tons of music. This will cause young people to experience live shows and some will find it much more exciting than watching a little screen. Who knows how many guitars will be involved, but it will be loud because the kids are deaf from headphones.

Post Reply