Small diaphargm on guitar amps

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tdbajus
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Small diaphargm on guitar amps

Post by tdbajus » Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:40 am

I was recently shocked by how awesome my friend's Avenson STO-2 omnis sound on my guitar amp. Very natural sounding, but because they are omni, the bleed like crazy.

ANyone else recording on the SDC tip? Volume isn't a huge issue for me, as the largest amp I record with is generally less than 25 watts.

Warm audio has those Warm Audio WA-84 which are a quarter the price of the Neumann KM184 (a matched stereo pair of the WA mics costs as much as one KM 184!). Unfortunately, you don't always get what you pay for with music gear - a shootout between a Manley Dual Mono vs a $300 Mackie Onyx taught me that painful lesson - and I'm wondering if anyone has any opinions out there.

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Re: Small diaphargm on guitar amps

Post by jorri » Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:11 am

Steve Albini's go-to method is an SDC and ribbon (or sometimes other bright/dark combo). a foot away both straight at cone as close together as possible. (Plus room mics which are sdc too, a bit more normal for the room)

I tried it and liked it, it sounds like what i hear in the room basically. My mics and amps are rather low end compared (well, even to what you list, its an Avantone ck1 and SE x1r) I think he uses a tube variety, and he used a lot of them such as on toms and snares.
I prefer under half that distance because i do not have the room oe volume, and angle or offset one which is great with SDC which never really gets muddy like any other mic type. (I dont always want ice pick tones 😆)

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Re: Small diaphargm on guitar amps

Post by marqueemoon » Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:28 am

What you might be liking about the omni mic is the lack of proximity effect and not necessarily the small diaphragm.

What do mean by “bleed like crazy”? Could you physically isolate the amp? What about the bleed is bad?

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Re: Small diaphargm on guitar amps

Post by tdbajus » Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:17 am

I have a small mic shield, but since a lot of our stuff is improvisational, we all record at the same time, in the same room.

Isolation is not possible, really, without radically changing the way we work, which I don't want to do.

I do love the response of omnis - I have a could good LDCs that I use in omni whenever I can - but what I'm able to get from the avensons is that slicing tone, like that stinging bit in "Sympathy For The Devil". My tone also seems more... Percussive? Like it reaches out of the speakers and busts a stinging slap across my chops. LOVE IT.

I do t know if it's because they are omni, if it's because they are electret, or if it's my new amp, but I'm getting close to hearing what I hear in the room. Which is all I ever wanted, really.

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Re: Small diaphargm on guitar amps

Post by tdbajus » Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:31 am

But anyone have any experience with the Warm Audio WA-84 vs Neumann KM184, or with either separately?

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Re: Small diaphargm on guitar amps

Post by marqueemoon » Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:37 am

Can you borrow any ol’ cheap SD cardioid condenser from someone just to try for proof of concept?

If the sole application is going to be guitar amp I can’t see much advantage to going with a fancier mic.

Don’t have personal experience with the Neumann or Warm Audio so can’t comment there.

My bandmate has a pair of Octava MK-012s which are nice. Looks like a single with a cardioid and omni capsule is $265.

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Re: Small diaphargm on guitar amps

Post by tdbajus » Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:58 am

I ordered a pair of the WA mics from Guitar Center, so it will be easy to return them if I don't like them. I'll post a brief review and some clips later, if anyone cares.

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Re: Small diaphargm on guitar amps

Post by Larry Mal » Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:37 am

tdbajus wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:31 am
But anyone have any experience with the Warm Audio WA-84 vs Neumann KM184, or with either separately?
I own a couple of KM184s, but I don't use them on guitar amps. You could, though.

So, I have a Princeton Recording amp, and that has a built in attenuator to it. If I was going to use my Neumanns to record that amp, I would probably use the attenuator on it.

So, the Neumann advertises itself as having "high SPL" capacity, and they say it can handle 138 dB.

And it may, I don't know- I wouldn't push them there. Still, though, the thing that makes a small diaphragm condenser good is how fast it can react to transients. And when you drive an amp and it's pushing the diaphragm back with such high levels, I have a hard time seeing how that reaction time isn't thrown off to a degree.

So I would want to attenuate the sound, personally, and let the SDC breathe and work the way it's supposed to.

Sounds like you got the Warm Audio, but let me know if you have any questions about the Neumanns, anyway.
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Re: Small diaphargm on guitar amps

Post by marqueemoon » Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:00 pm

tdbajus wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:58 am
I ordered a pair of the WA mics from Guitar Center, so it will be easy to return them if I don't like them. I'll post a brief review and some clips later, if anyone cares.
Definitely interested to hear how this works out.

Anymore I usually record electric guitar direct when at home, but I’m planning to DIY my band’s next EP and for that I want some miced amp sounds.

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Re: Small diaphargm on guitar amps

Post by jorri » Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:35 pm

I notice Avenson STO-2 are particularly different design. Much smaller capsule than even regualr SDCs, resemble reference mics, have as perfectly neutral sound as you can get. For sure that will impact their accuracy.

Can only suggest large panels for the bleed. Sometimes an improvised on is better than...having a hi-hat in your guitar tracks for example. For an Omni, somewhere i read a good rule of thumb is simply placing it 1/2 the distance equates to the same bleed as a cardioid but it changes the sound (less for an omni than others, no proximity and plus it captures a larger area), and you probably have it up against the grill already.
Or- have a backup mic that's really tight and close for situations in mixing where bleed is uncontrollable.

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Re: Small diaphargm on guitar amps

Post by zenarcade » Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:52 pm

I don't have any experience with the Warm audio. But as far as i understand it is based on the Neumann Km84 not the 184. Not sure if there is a big difference. There are a lot of people that bash the Km184 Compared to the neumann km84 though, but on the same side people also do not like the new u87ai (compared to vintage ones) which i love..

Another option could be the audio technica at4041. These can be found cheap and imo are great.

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Re: Small diaphargm on guitar amps

Post by Larry Mal » Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:24 am

zenarcade wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:52 pm
But as far as i understand it is based on the Neumann Km84 not the 184. Not sure if there is a big difference. There are a lot of people that bash the Km184 Compared to the neumann km84 though, but on the same side people also do not like the new u87ai (compared to vintage ones) which i love..
As an owner of two 184s, I'll bet there is a pretty big difference. I don't really love my 184s.
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Re: Small diaphargm on guitar amps

Post by tdbajus » Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:15 am

Larry Mal wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:24 am
zenarcade wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:52 pm
But as far as i understand it is based on the Neumann Km84 not the 184. Not sure if there is a big difference. There are a lot of people that bash the Km184 Compared to the neumann km84 though, but on the same side people also do not like the new u87ai (compared to vintage ones) which i love..
As an owner of two 184s, I'll bet there is a pretty big difference. I don't really love my 184s.
Hm. I didn't realize that there was that big of a difference- what I have read has lead me to believe that the KM184 was just a bit brighter.

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Re: Small diaphargm on guitar amps

Post by Larry Mal » Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:24 am

tdbajus wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:15 am


Hm. I didn't realize that there was that big of a difference- what I have read has lead me to believe that the KM184 was just a bit brighter.
Hard for me to compare, I have used 84s, but it was over a decade ago. Probably about fifteen years ago.

The KM184s are very bright, bordering on harsh at times. Of course that will depend on your environment, and you could argue that this allows for greater detail.

Like I say, I don't love them. I got very good prices on them, but if I was buying fresh with a better budget, I don't think I would purchase them again.
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Re: Small diaphargm on guitar amps

Post by tdbajus » Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:36 am

Larry Mal wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:24 am
Like I say, I don't love them. I got very good prices on them, but if I was buying fresh with a better budget, I don't think I would purchase them again.
What would you buy?

Has anyone used the KM84 and KM184 versions?

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