help me rebuild a cheap recording set up

Get that song on tape! Errr... disk?
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UlricvonCatalyst
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Re: help me rebuild a cheap recording set up

Post by UlricvonCatalyst » Mon Apr 04, 2022 8:47 am

Don't know about availability/ubiquity Stateside, but the home recordist's budget-friendly go-to in the UK for many years was the Rode NT-2 (multiple polar patterns). Their NT-1 is even cheaper as it has a fixed cardioid pattern. I believe they share the same capsule. Worth looking into, in my opinion.

Not to diss Larry's doubtless well-researched advice, but I think the suggestion that recording in untreated rooms will yield unusable results is an overstatement. Yes, professional producers might wince at your vocal sound, but no-one else will care unless they hate your singing or songs.

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Re: help me rebuild a cheap recording set up

Post by marqueemoon » Mon Apr 04, 2022 9:14 am

panoramic wrote:
Mon Apr 04, 2022 7:32 am
The MOTU m4 looks like a really nice interface, thanks Marquee
You’re welcome. I really like mine.

Looks like the M2 has MIDI as well. I like having 4 inputs as I do record drums from time to time.

The metering is probably my favorite feature. Very easy to see when recording yourself.

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Re: help me rebuild a cheap recording set up

Post by Larry Mal » Mon Apr 04, 2022 9:51 am

UlricvonCatalyst wrote:
Mon Apr 04, 2022 8:47 am
Don't know about availability/ubiquity Stateside, but the home recordist's budget-friendly go-to in the UK for many years was the Rode NT-2 (multiple polar patterns). Their NT-1 is even cheaper as it has a fixed cardioid pattern. I believe they share the same capsule. Worth looking into, in my opinion.

Not to diss Larry's doubtless well-researched advice, but I think the suggestion that recording in untreated rooms will yield unusable results is an overstatement. Yes, professional producers might wince at your vocal sound, but no-one else will care unless they hate your singing or songs.
The Rode microphones are pretty good. But honestly, and maybe Brad touched on this a bit earlier, at certain price points all the microphone makers want you to think that somehow their product is better than others at the same price point, for the most part, it all hits in the same zone.

Regarding my advice about room treatment, though, I am of the opinion that despite bass traps not being as sexy as a new preamp with sparkly lights and shit, the fact remains that room treatment is the best possible expenditure for home recording.

And yes, recording in an untreated room does make your recordings sound bad, in the sense that as the sound reflects off the surfaces and arrives at the microphone again you are in effect applying an EQ curve to your recording, and not one you can easily predict or want. Honestly I should probably say EQ curves, since you'll experience comb filtering and other phenomena- some of the frequencies will cancel out and others will increase as they reverberate around the room.

So why did you spend your time evaluating the plot points of a microphone, why did you care if your preamp was warm in the midrange if you were just going to feed it bad information?

To make matters worse, at some point you are going to need to mix all this stuff together. You'll spend a fair amount of time with your EQ trying to get to just a usable sound, not necessarily a better one, since you'll have to be mitigating out all the effects of the standing waves and I've already mentioned the comb filtering:

"Take the time to listen to related sources carefully before you record. If you recognize a comb filtering effect you may have to move one of the microphones or change the way you record.

In addition to that, reflections off the hard surfaces in the environment where you record can also lead to comb filtering.

For example, imagine you’re recording vocals in a small room with no acoustic treatment. The first reflection that bounces off a nearby wall combines with the direct sound of your voice when it reaches the mic.

Even this small time delay can result in comb filtering as the two signals combine at the microphone.

Try to avoid setting up your mics too close to hard surfaces like walls and ceilings. Or better yet, create a DIY vocal booth to reduce reflections in your space."


I'm only thinking of standing waves and comb filtering right now, but there are probably other bad effects that happen with recording in an untreated room. Parallel walls with hard surfaces are your enemy.

And regarding other mixing elements, let's consider compression and reverb.

With compression, you'll be compressing a bunch of recorded information that you don't want, the room sound. Sure, you are going to try to EQ that out, but you won't be successful, since a lot of the room sound lives at the same frequencies as what you have recorded. Can't get rid of that. So you'll be in effect compressing a bunch of sound that you don't want, and since compression can be thought of as a way of making something more prominent in a mix (or maybe more consistent), well, you have drawn attention to something that you probably don't want to draw attention to.

And then you'll want to apply reverb, whether it be convolution or otherwise. Your ears want to hear music as living in some kind of space, it feels jarring otherwise.

But the space you recorded in sounds bad, and now you are adding more artificial space to it (artificial space is fine), but you are in danger of your mix sounding muddy and incoherent.

Which is why I tell people, if you don't have an environment that sounds good- and you almost certainly don't- then mitigate your environment. It not only sounds better to start with, but it gives you a lot more options down the road that you won't have otherwise.

Room treatment is a difference you can hear immediately, by the way. It's a very noticeable thing. I have a bedroom with bass traps and such, and the moment you walk in there the whole sonic environment changes. And if your ears can hear it, your microphone absolutely will hear it.
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Re: help me rebuild a cheap recording set up

Post by UlricvonCatalyst » Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:12 am

^Yes, Andy is looking for a mic "at a certain price point", and, I suspect, isn't expecting results that sound like they've been recorded in an anechoic chamber.

As for the rest of it, I stand by my assertion that most people don't care about a recording that's hopelessly marred by standing waves and comb filtering. It's not like you won't actually be able to hear anything at all or have, at the very least, something you can work with which will give you a result you can do something with.

Larry, I'd suggest you've read up on this subject too much and it's skewed your perception somewhat. What you're saying is roughly equivalent to "There's no point in buying a nice car because none of the road surfaces you'll drive it on will allow you to get the best out of it." Well, it'll still get you from A to B and back again. Yes, there might be some bumps in the road. Life is at best imperfect.

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Re: help me rebuild a cheap recording set up

Post by Larry Mal » Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:41 pm

UlricvonCatalyst wrote:
Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:12 am


As for the rest of it, I stand by my assertion that most people don't care about a recording that's hopelessly marred by standing waves and comb filtering.
I absolutely agree with this. They almost certainly won't care about it at all, and if for some reason they hear it once, they almost certainly won't want to hear it again. The vast majority of people want to hear music recorded as well as the technology of the era that they are listening to offered.
UlricvonCatalyst wrote:
Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:12 am
Larry, I'd suggest you've read up on this subject too much and it's skewed your perception somewhat. What you're saying is roughly equivalent to "There's no point in buying a nice car because none of the road surfaces you'll drive it on will allow you to get the best out of it." Well, it'll still get you from A to B and back again. Yes, there might be some bumps in the road. Life is at best imperfect.
Well, I mean, I'm just giving the best advice I can same as anyone else.

I've done it all, I spent years in the basement with a Tascam 424 and a Roland drum machine. I have worked with some world class equipment also. I've made vocal booths out of moving blankets hung from the ceiling, and I've recorded orchestras in great sounding locations, period music ensembles in wonderful sounding churches, I've recorded straight up bullshit in practice spaces with a heavy metal band playing in the very next booth, bleeding into my buddy's song.

And like Andy, I also have need for a home recording setup, and so I'm talking about the stuff I've learned during that process. At each step of the way, though, I always wanted to make the best recordings that I could. That's never changed.

Regardless, though, right now is an incredible time to be alive if you like recording your music. Inexpensive microphones can deliver very good results, recording interfaces and preamps are cheap, good and accurate, even your most accessible DAW will be loaded with compressors, EQ and reverbs more than capable of doing anything anyone could probably need.

And none of that is going to matter if you don't know or care about the fundamentals of how to record stuff, and one of the biggest things is having some control over your environment. Sure, you can just do whatever you want, you can stick a Shure SM57 directly into the soundhole of your acoustic, fuck it, who cares, and you can play it for your friends and they'll patronize the shit out of you and tell you how super cool it is that you totally make music and never listen to it again, ask me how I know. They won't be able to eject the CD out of the car stereo fast enough.

So I don't know what else advice to give? I mean, I would rather have a modest microphone setup and preamp in a great sounding room than a great microphone and preamp in a terrible sounding environment. Wouldn't anyone? You can work with the one, but you are stuck with the other.

I really don't see how suggesting that he buy a couple of bass traps and a couple more sound absorption panels is too incredible since he wants to record his singing. It'll make a lot more difference than a thousand dollar preamp will.
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Re: help me rebuild a cheap recording set up

Post by Dok » Mon Apr 04, 2022 2:54 pm

Larry Mal wrote:
Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:41 pm
I really don't see how suggesting that he buy a couple of bass traps and a couple more sound absorption panels is too incredible since he wants to record his singing. It'll make a lot more difference than a thousand dollar preamp will.
agreed

and +1 on the MOTU interface that was mentioned, was going to suggest this myself. really lovely little interfaces and you'll not have to ever question the preamps as being part of the problem.

For vocal mics I'd definitely throw in the AT3035 as something worthy of consideration, it's a really lovely mic for the price, but it definitely likes a treated room. If you find you have too much room sound you might try yet another dynamic, top of the list is an RE20, which also doubles as the perfect bass cabinet mic.
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Re: help me rebuild a cheap recording set up

Post by øøøøøøø » Mon Apr 04, 2022 6:06 pm

I think a good way to proceed is to get the bare minimum and get to work. Spend money only when you notice that something is holding you back and can identify the obstacle (or have someone help you identify it).

It'd be possible to poll the internet, spend $250,000, and still make bad recordings.

The only way to make good recordings is to develop your instincts and understanding through doing. That can be done with a Scarlett 2i2 and an SM57. When you reach the limitations of whatever you're starting with, you'll be better-informed about where to spend money.

FWIW, I am not a fan of the NT1. But it will definitely turn sound into electricity, just like all the other mics I don't like and won't use. It's highly personal, but you do tend to notice that people who make good-sounding recordings all tend to converge on the same tools.

It's why all the cool vintage mics are so unattainably expensive.

I will say... if you want "good value" and not just "cheap," it'd be pretty hard to do much better than an older used Gefell MT71. It's a simple transformerless LDC with an incredible capsule. The transformerless impedance conversion circuitry doesn't contribute anything magical, but it does get out of the way of that fantastic capsule, which is the most important part of any condenser microphone. Even in this inflation-addled, gear-crazy moment they can still often be had for under a grand (sometimes closer to $800)

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Re: help me rebuild a cheap recording set up

Post by marqueemoon » Mon Apr 04, 2022 6:27 pm

The room does matter. I’ve found that I just flat out don’t trust my bandmate’s space at all for mixing.

Haven’t done much with my own space though to be honest.

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Re: help me rebuild a cheap recording set up

Post by panoramic » Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:22 am

UlricvonCatalyst wrote:
Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:12 am
^Yes, Andy is looking for a mic "at a certain price point", and, I suspect, isn't expecting results that sound like they've been recorded in an anechoic chamber.

As for the rest of it, I stand by my assertion that most people don't care about a recording that's hopelessly marred by standing waves and comb filtering. It's not like you won't actually be able to hear anything at all or have, at the very least, something you can work with which will give you a result you can do something with.

Larry, I'd suggest you've read up on this subject too much and it's skewed your perception somewhat. What you're saying is roughly equivalent to "There's no point in buying a nice car because none of the road surfaces you'll drive it on will allow you to get the best out of it." Well, it'll still get you from A to B and back again. Yes, there might be some bumps in the road. Life is at best imperfect.
You're right about that, my expectations aren't very high. I want to get a decent sound without breaking the bank. I'm a single dad and all that (priorities) but I figure over the next year I can throw 1200 or so into a recording set up. I figured I'd start with an interface and learn whatever program it comes with first and move on from that point with additions to improve how that sounds. I think a mic is also a good initial pick up.
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Re: help me rebuild a cheap recording set up

Post by panoramic » Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:25 am

Larry Mal wrote:
Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:41 pm
UlricvonCatalyst wrote:
Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:12 am


As for the rest of it, I stand by my assertion that most people don't care about a recording that's hopelessly marred by standing waves and comb filtering.
I absolutely agree with this. They almost certainly won't care about it at all, and if for some reason they hear it once, they almost certainly won't want to hear it again. The vast majority of people want to hear music recorded as well as the technology of the era that they are listening to offered.

I dunno man, I am pretty into lo-fi recordings Larry. You and I have very different views on this I'm sure. I do love all of the input for sure as it gives me a good baseline to work off.
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Re: help me rebuild a cheap recording set up

Post by øøøøøøø » Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:17 am

I like to keep in perspective that most of our favorite music from any era is the result of people using what is accessible and getting on with it.

I’d never wait for a specific guitar, amp, mic, or whatever to start making music. There will always be just one more thing you don’t have, so you might as well get started now and figure out the rest as you go.

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Re: help me rebuild a cheap recording set up

Post by Larry Mal » Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:27 am

panoramic wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:25 am


I dunno man, I am pretty into lo-fi recordings Larry. You and I have very different views on this I'm sure. I do love all of the input for sure as it gives me a good baseline to work off.
I hear you, brother. I really only point this stuff out because you basically never see it discussed, you'll see people talking about the characteristics of whatever preamp, the frequency response of various microphones, and all of that shit is rendered meaningless as soon as you put it in an untreated room.

By the way, you are recording in your spare bedroom... that's "lo-fi" as shit, and that's how it's going to stay. A bass trap or two doesn't immediately put you into overproduced territory, it just means that you aren't fighting against yourself and losing.

This will conclude my advice! Best of luck with your project.
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Re: help me rebuild a cheap recording set up

Post by postboredom » Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:46 am

I recently upgraded to a Focusrite Scarlett 4i4, its the best interface i've owned.
Its usb powered, no power chord needed. and it also has the midi input in the back. Super powerful device, and its a bargain.
Its great for beginners, and i've seen a lot of pros use it.


For recording guitar, I've switched from recording amps. to using Neural Amp sims.
Archetype Nolly is a very well rounded amp sim, you can can do fender cleans , marshall crunch and Peavy style saturated gain as well.

They even have a sim of a Tone king imperial out that i want to get.
note, that i've never paid full price for their plugins, every 4 month they have a 50% off sale.

I wont go back to recording an amp anymore. with two chords, i can get started and writing / recording in minutes.

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Re: help me rebuild a cheap recording set up

Post by panoramic » Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:54 am

postboredom wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:46 am
I recently upgraded to a Focusrite Scarlett 4i4, its the best interface i've owned.
Its usb powered, no power chord needed. and it also has the midi input in the back. Super powerful device, and its a bargain.
Its great for beginners, and i've seen a lot of pros use it.


For recording guitar, I've switched from recording amps. to using Neural Amp sims.
Archetype Nolly is a very well rounded amp sim, you can can do fender cleans , marshall crunch and Peavy style saturated gain as well.

They even have a sim of a Tone king imperial out that i want to get.
note, that i've never paid full price for their plugins, every 4 month they have a 50% off sale.

I wont go back to recording an amp anymore. with two chords, i can get started and writing / recording in minutes.
nice! I will check out the neural amp sims you're talking about. I am not opposed to doing DI if i can get away with it. I'm just used to recording cabs with mics as I am old school.
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Re: help me rebuild a cheap recording set up

Post by tdksa90 » Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:22 am

Those MOTU units are nice. But I'd recommend checking out the Universal Audio Volt 2. I just got one a couple months ago and it's a great sounding unit that is affordable.

Good luck with the setup!
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