Watch out for Waves...

Get that song on tape! Errr... disk?
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Larry Mal
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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by Larry Mal » Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:59 pm

My perspective is a little different, I view Apple's "new OS each year" as being a way to force obsolescence on customers. That's how they got me to buy a new computer, at least in part, I was no longer eligible for Logic updates and while I could live with an older version of that, other incompatibilities started coming in.

What Waves is doing is a case in point. I had Waves versions 9 through 14 running on my old computer- and it was old, a 2010. On the new computer only 14 would work, and then Waves felt strong enough to go to subscription.

No one needs a new operating system each year... it's entirely for Apple's benefit and not yours.

And yes, Logic is one way that Apple keeps people in the ecosystem. It works. To me, the high price of the Apple computers is offset by the cheap software. Not only just Logic, but other things like Pages and so forth. You buy a Windows machine, there's no built in word processor or spread sheet application, so you are now having to subscribe to Office 365 for $100 a year (or use Google Docs).

And so on. I am not shocked by companies trying to separate me from my money or anything. But I can say that there's no way Waves is going to get $300 a year from me for the rest of my life for their plug ins. I get that if went entirely to Softube stuff I would have to pay to upgrade that, but the difference is paying to upgrade gives me some control over when I want to prioritize that upgrade, whereas with Waves' subscription model I have no choice.

But, if Waves was a tool I needed professionally, I would have to do it.

That's the mystery to me here, though. Waves has gone from being a very high end product that was very expensive to a very hobbyist friendly software maker that sold useful things you could buy incrementally as you grew with your hobby. Not only that, but the products were priced so appealingly low that it was fun to pick them up and play around with it.

Now they've abandoned both of their previous models for something new, or maybe it's a return to trying to service only professional studios again. It's hard to know.
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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by Larry Mal » Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:03 pm

øøøøøøø wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:55 pm
in their case, it's probably seen as a value-add for their hardware.

I feel like it must be a loss-leader (or a break-even) at best for them. It's just hard to imagine that someone could bring to market (and support) a DAW as good as Logic Pro to market for $199 as a stand-alone app.
That's exactly what it is. And it works, I can tell you. I own lapsed licenses to Pro Tools, Live, Digital Performer and Cubase- probably others. Some years ago I had decided to break with Apple and Logic and move to Windows and Cubase.

Logic Pro X kept me on the Mac platform, though. And like Mike says, I spent $200 on Logic X ten years ago and that was it. Had I stayed with Cubase I would have had to upgrade that a couple of times.

Which has a downside, of course.
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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by øøøøøøø » Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:02 pm

There’s a larger “middle class” for recording and pro audio gear now than at any other time in history (even 10 years ago).

I don’t think Waves needs to count on pro studios (that would be a bad bet in 2023 anyway!)

But they may well be trying to appeal to more of the “upper middle class” than they used to with $25 plug-in sales.

I’d imagine they’ll lose some of the lower end, but may be banking on some slightly more upmarket users who’d be willing to bite and make up the difference

Time will tell if they’re right

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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by Larry Mal » Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:31 pm

øøøøøøø wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:02 pm


Time will tell if they’re right
That is certainly true, and I imagine they've done some research into what the market wants from them. You'd never know it from the online vitriol, though. I have yet to read a single positive thing anywhere I look. Of course, negativity is more vocal. No one talks about all the times that the roof didn't cave in.

I also came to find their $29 plug ins being marketed constantly kind of weird. I think they sort of devalued their brand. What I don't know is if this will change anything.
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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by burpgun » Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:32 am

I'm so glad I have nothing tied up with Waves because I would never want to go to the subscription model. Anything I see offered under such a system is an automatic "no." Reason is trying to push users that way as well, and between that company's seeming inability to go native on Apple Silicon, I'm doing everything I can to weed that piece of software out of my workflow after 20 years.

So many plugin makers exact torture on their users although the traditional route has been through ugly copy protection systems. I understand the economic challenges faced by makers but putting paying customers through that, well, there's got to be a better way. I've been through every Mac transition of the last 25 years and trying to go through all of that has gotten me to whittle down what I use software-wise, and gravitate toward companies that offer a lot in a fashion that seems friendly to users, like Arturia. I've been using Logic so long I paid a grand to get the dongle activated version back in the day, it's pretty radical that you can get it for $200 and use it on every Mac you own.

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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by Larry Mal » Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:51 am

burpgun wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:32 am
I'm so glad I have nothing tied up with Waves because I would never want to go to the subscription model. Anything I see offered under such a system is an automatic "no." Reason is trying to push users that way as well, and between that company's seeming inability to go native on Apple Silicon, I'm doing everything I can to weed that piece of software out of my workflow after 20 years.

Certainly nothing is helped by anyone that would pirate software. I have a low opinion of people that would do that. Support your developers.

But yeah, you bring up a good point. There's only so many subscriptions I will carry. If I have one for Reason, I'm not likely to have one for Waves, and so on. I get that software companies want a steady stream of revenue from me, but that's exactly what I don't want. And up until now, I haven't had to provide that.

So there's a certain tension there.
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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by øøøøøøø » Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:44 am

I bet it’s not a total coincidence that this move coincides somewhat with the move from intel to Apple Silicon in Mac computers.

That probably sent every software developer into an expensive scramble.

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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by burpgun » Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:06 am

Larry Mal wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:51 am
burpgun wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:32 am
I'm so glad I have nothing tied up with Waves because I would never want to go to the subscription model. Anything I see offered under such a system is an automatic "no." Reason is trying to push users that way as well, and between that company's seeming inability to go native on Apple Silicon, I'm doing everything I can to weed that piece of software out of my workflow after 20 years.

Certainly nothing is helped by anyone that would pirate software. I have a low opinion of people that would do that. Support your developers.

But yeah, you bring up a good point. There's only so many subscriptions I will carry. If I have one for Reason, I'm not likely to have one for Waves, and so on. I get that software companies want a steady stream of revenue from me, but that's exactly what I don't want. And up until now, I haven't had to provide that.

So there's a certain tension there.
I feel for the developers, and working personally in an industry that's struggled to get users to pay for the product, I understand plug makers wanting to protect their investment and get paid. I genuinely do. That said, in the last six months I've dealt with my main machine running into big problems requiring multiple reinstalls, which in turn nudged me to new hardware altogether. I had to take a hard look at what I'd accumulated and try to figure out all the different protection schemes I needed to move to new gear, how many installs I had left, did I have all the serials and passwords needed not to lose access? That was the hard part of getting a new machine, the rest was easy. I made the the call to really focus in on what I had installed. Haven't personally dealt with any cracked stuff 'cause, ethics aside, just not into installing sketchy software.

Subscriptions also suck if you look at your recording machine as something you might have fixed for a purpose. I had a super stable Mojave install going for years after Apple dropped support, everything was paid for, updates weren't needed, it did the job. If that's your jam it would be pretty sucky to have subscription stuff because you'd just be paying for something that would have once been a one-time investment.

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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by Jaguar018 » Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:17 am

Did you see that they backtracked? OOOPS.

My name is Meir Shashoua, and I’m the CTO and Co-Founder of Waves Audio.

Over the past few days, many of you have expressed concerns about our decision to discontinue perpetual plugin licenses and our move to an exclusive plugin subscription model. I would like to start by apologizing for the frustration we have caused many of you, our loyal customers. We understand that our move was sudden and disruptive, and did not sufficiently take into consideration your needs, wishes, and preferences. We are genuinely sorry for the distress it has caused.

After respectfully listening to your concerns, I want to share with you that we are bringing back the perpetual plugin license model, side-by-side with the new subscriptions. You will again be able to get plugins as perpetual licenses, just as before.

In addition, those of you who already own perpetual licenses will once again be able to update your plugins and receive a second license via the Waves Update Plan—again, just as before. This option, too, will be available alongside and independently of the subscription program.

We are currently putting all our efforts into making perpetual licenses available to you again, as quickly as possible. In the meantime, you can keep up-to-date on this news page, where we will post the latest updates on perpetual license availability.

I would like you to know that we are committed to you, our users. We listened to your feedback, and we will continue to listen to you. Waves is a company filled with users and creators, just like you, and we are all as passionate about the products as you are. With this in mind, we will strive to find the way to make things right by you, and hopefully regain your trust.

Thank you for your feedback and continued support—I wish you all the best,

Meir Shashoua
CTO and Co-Founder, Waves Audio

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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by Larry Mal » Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:20 am

øøøøøøø wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:44 am
I bet it’s not a total coincidence that this move coincides somewhat with the move from intel to Apple Silicon in Mac computers.

That probably sent every software developer into an expensive scramble.
Yeah, I had mentioned that above. Expensive for Waves to keep up with, no doubt, but I also feel that they saw it as an opportunity. A lot of people are moving to Apple's new chipset.

I described it to someone yesterday as Apple being the shark, and companies like Waves are the remoras.

Apple's cycle of a new operating system every year is designed to force obsolescence on customers. OSX Catalina, for instance, seems to be end of life and it was actively supported for something like three years. If Apple isn't supporting that OS, you can bet no one else will be, so sooner or later something is going to break. You can't stay there.

And of course sooner or later Apple will declare your computer to be insufficient for the newer operating system anyway. Sometimes there is a technical reason, other times, though, it's just Apple drawing a line in the sand. I decided to be pig-headed about it and I found a way to install two generations of operating system on my old Mac Pro, but I had to thwart Apple on it.

None of this has to happen- I mean, Windows 7 was actively supported for 11 years.

It's exactly the same thing as Waves- Apple wants you to spend money on their schedule, and not whatever schedule you might want.

Not even to mention that you can't upgrade or even repair any of the newer Macs with the silicon chip. The most warranty you can get with Apple is four years, and that's a pretty good indicator of what Apple wants you to consider the life of your computer as being.

There is a lot to dislike about Apple.

As you mention, though, this also puts a burden on developers who have to try and make sense of all these new operating systems and other changes.

Waves has decided to make it an opportunity, though. We'll see how that happens.
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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by Larry Mal » Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:22 am

Jaguar018 wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:17 am
Did you see that they backtracked? OOOPS.

My name is Meir Shashoua, and I’m the CTO and Co-Founder of Waves Audio.

Wow. Told y'all it was unpopular.
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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by øøøøøøø » Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:29 am

Well that seems like a good resolution

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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by Larry Mal » Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:58 am

Well, what am I going to talk about now? I really had something going there.
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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by Jaguar018 » Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:16 am

Larry Mal wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:58 am
Well, what am I going to talk about now? I really had something going there.
How about armchair quarterbacking Fender Corp some more? I NEVER get tired of you going on about that.

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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by Telliot » Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:19 am

:D :D :D
The cool thing about fretless is you can hit a note...and then renegotiate.

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