(Disclaimer: I was sure there was an old banjo thread but was unable to find it. If anyone remembers and can send me a link I’ll combine the threads.)
Anyhoo.
I’ve decided I’m finally going to get a banjo in the relatively near future, but there are so many out there, not to mention the open- vs closed-back issue. I thought I’d lean on your collective knowledge in the hopes I can make a better-informed decision.
If it helps, I’ll never be a bluegrass player, but I certainly wouldn’t mind learning some of those techniques. I prefer a mellower tone that can sit nicely in a mix and not be too harsh; something that will record well. I’ve heard open-back is better for this, but again, I’m here to learn. Any experience or advice is welcome!
Can we talk about banjos?
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Telliot
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Can we talk about banjos?
The cool thing about fretless is you can hit a note...and then renegotiate.
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Larry Mal
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Re: Can we talk about banjos?
Hi Todd. Banjo is a great instrument, I've owned two (edit: I've owned more than two). It's also a weird one for a guitar player since there's the overseas made entry level stuff, and from there it jumps right up to expensive crafted banjos. There's not a lot of middle ground which will vex you as a guitar player. (Another edit: I think this advice is out of date, as I wrote this bit, I looked up a bunch of good middle range instruments.)
I don't personally recommend an open back banjo, mainly because if you want that sound you can take the resonator off your banjo and get pretty close. The reverse isn't true, though, you can't add a resonator to an open back banjo.
That being said, though, I don't know that I would think an open back banjo would record better. You'd never put a microphone dead in front of a banjo any more than you would stick a microphone directly at an acoustic guitar, even so, though, the resonator on the banjo focuses the sound forward which really should make it easier to get a good sound. I'm kind of shaky on this, though- haven't recorded a lot of banjo. So be a little skeptical of this advice.
But you very much might want to mellow the sound down, that's actually a big part of the banjo. Easier and better ways to do it than commit to an open banjo, I'd feel.
Most people don't know this, but the banjo is a very, very versatile instrument and one of the ways it gets there is by prominent use of mutes. There's a lot of different kinds of mutes and it's also common to find violin mutes. The violin mutes sometimes are just wooden "combs" and you can put them on and off quickly.
There's a whole world to explore there. Most people think of the banjo as some loud, metallic instrument spewing notes out at incredible speed, but when you put mutes on there and play slow arpeggios it sounds sad and wonderful.
You can also change the tone a lot by using different fingerpicks or no fingerpicks. My overall point is that the modern five string resonator banjo is the end result of a lot of banjo evolution over hundreds of years, and while it's not as specialized as some banjos are- check out this nylon strung open back banjo- it's probably the best place to start and can reasonably cover most styles at least up until a point.
Oh: do not be tempted to get one of those six string banjos that are supposed to be for guitar players. You're only cheating yourself. The banjo is tuned to a chord and you move in and out of other keys by use of capos- more on that in a second- and by tuning the banjo sometimes. You want this- the finger rolls take a lot of work and practice and you want to keep them consistent if you can. So it's tuned to open G, you want to play in B, cool. Capo up a bit and keep doing the same thing you do with your right hand.
You throw all the things that make the banjo a unique world in and of itself right out the window if you try and force it to be a guitar. I feel you know this but someone else might not.
When you look into banjos there's a lot of choices to make, there's the mahogany vs maple that you are already familiar with, traditionally the banjo has had a flat fingerboard but now you see people using radius there, and then there are tone rings, which is a big subject and I can't address it well.
But, make sure you get one. They don't all have them, that's an expensive part of the banjo. The Deering Boston doesn't, that's Deering's attempt to make a great sounding banjo otherwise. You might be attracted to the Deering Goodtimes- I've owned two- and for the most part, they don't have tone rings although they later introduced the Goodtime Special that does have one.
I think they are only OK instruments, though.
So, what should you buy? Well, historically, Gibson has always been the leading light with banjos, but not all of their banjos are great. The "Mastertone" is kind of their legendary banjo but there are a lot of counterfeit ones out there. You can read about them here. But if you want something that says "Mastertone", you'll be spending.
Gibson also made an "RB" line- "regular banjo"- and those varied wildly in quality over the years as Gibson tried to hit various price points. I don't know that I would recommend those, although some years seemed like they would be pretty good.
Deering of course is great- I kind of consider them the Taylor guitars of the banjo world, they are innovative, very good, and didn't feel all that bound to tradition.
Which will bring us to the Sierra. I own one from before it had the "Sierra" name and was just called the Standard. As Deering scaled up their production the Sierra became more elaborate looking, but the concept is always the same, a professional grade banjo at an affordable price- "affordable" being relative, but used you can find them at decent prices.
It would be kind of like the D-18- if someone asked if they should buy that, you'd say sure, you might want something else down the road but if you don't, that D-18 will do everything you need a guitar to do.
What else is out there- well, Gold Tone makes a good banjo at overseas price points, personally there's no way I would buy an instrument so tied in with American culture like the banjo that is made in Chinese factories. Something seems very wrong there. You may feel otherwise and they are good banjos. You'll get a good tone ring, for instance, at a price point where Deering does not offer tone rings.
Gold Tone also offers high end models. You are probably familiar with the Recording King brand and they are same as they are in the guitar world, good instruments.
Nechville makes great banjos, they feel even less of a need to stick to tradition than Deering does. For instance on this Athena they use guitar tuners instead of banjo tuners. Don't be fooled, though, there's a reason guitar and banjo tuners aren't the same. Banjo tuners might seem sloppy since they have very low tuning ratios compared to the 18:1 you see guitars tuners having now, but like I say tuning the banjo to fit songs during a performance is common so you need those tuners to work quick.
Anyway, I've maybe gone through my spiel, let me know if you have any questions. There's a lot to take in. Don't take me as an expert! Some of this is just my opinion over my own little banjo journey.
You'll find experts here, though.
I don't personally recommend an open back banjo, mainly because if you want that sound you can take the resonator off your banjo and get pretty close. The reverse isn't true, though, you can't add a resonator to an open back banjo.
That being said, though, I don't know that I would think an open back banjo would record better. You'd never put a microphone dead in front of a banjo any more than you would stick a microphone directly at an acoustic guitar, even so, though, the resonator on the banjo focuses the sound forward which really should make it easier to get a good sound. I'm kind of shaky on this, though- haven't recorded a lot of banjo. So be a little skeptical of this advice.
But you very much might want to mellow the sound down, that's actually a big part of the banjo. Easier and better ways to do it than commit to an open banjo, I'd feel.
Most people don't know this, but the banjo is a very, very versatile instrument and one of the ways it gets there is by prominent use of mutes. There's a lot of different kinds of mutes and it's also common to find violin mutes. The violin mutes sometimes are just wooden "combs" and you can put them on and off quickly.
There's a whole world to explore there. Most people think of the banjo as some loud, metallic instrument spewing notes out at incredible speed, but when you put mutes on there and play slow arpeggios it sounds sad and wonderful.
You can also change the tone a lot by using different fingerpicks or no fingerpicks. My overall point is that the modern five string resonator banjo is the end result of a lot of banjo evolution over hundreds of years, and while it's not as specialized as some banjos are- check out this nylon strung open back banjo- it's probably the best place to start and can reasonably cover most styles at least up until a point.
Oh: do not be tempted to get one of those six string banjos that are supposed to be for guitar players. You're only cheating yourself. The banjo is tuned to a chord and you move in and out of other keys by use of capos- more on that in a second- and by tuning the banjo sometimes. You want this- the finger rolls take a lot of work and practice and you want to keep them consistent if you can. So it's tuned to open G, you want to play in B, cool. Capo up a bit and keep doing the same thing you do with your right hand.
You throw all the things that make the banjo a unique world in and of itself right out the window if you try and force it to be a guitar. I feel you know this but someone else might not.
When you look into banjos there's a lot of choices to make, there's the mahogany vs maple that you are already familiar with, traditionally the banjo has had a flat fingerboard but now you see people using radius there, and then there are tone rings, which is a big subject and I can't address it well.
But, make sure you get one. They don't all have them, that's an expensive part of the banjo. The Deering Boston doesn't, that's Deering's attempt to make a great sounding banjo otherwise. You might be attracted to the Deering Goodtimes- I've owned two- and for the most part, they don't have tone rings although they later introduced the Goodtime Special that does have one.
I think they are only OK instruments, though.
So, what should you buy? Well, historically, Gibson has always been the leading light with banjos, but not all of their banjos are great. The "Mastertone" is kind of their legendary banjo but there are a lot of counterfeit ones out there. You can read about them here. But if you want something that says "Mastertone", you'll be spending.
Gibson also made an "RB" line- "regular banjo"- and those varied wildly in quality over the years as Gibson tried to hit various price points. I don't know that I would recommend those, although some years seemed like they would be pretty good.
Deering of course is great- I kind of consider them the Taylor guitars of the banjo world, they are innovative, very good, and didn't feel all that bound to tradition.
Which will bring us to the Sierra. I own one from before it had the "Sierra" name and was just called the Standard. As Deering scaled up their production the Sierra became more elaborate looking, but the concept is always the same, a professional grade banjo at an affordable price- "affordable" being relative, but used you can find them at decent prices.
It would be kind of like the D-18- if someone asked if they should buy that, you'd say sure, you might want something else down the road but if you don't, that D-18 will do everything you need a guitar to do.
What else is out there- well, Gold Tone makes a good banjo at overseas price points, personally there's no way I would buy an instrument so tied in with American culture like the banjo that is made in Chinese factories. Something seems very wrong there. You may feel otherwise and they are good banjos. You'll get a good tone ring, for instance, at a price point where Deering does not offer tone rings.
Gold Tone also offers high end models. You are probably familiar with the Recording King brand and they are same as they are in the guitar world, good instruments.
Nechville makes great banjos, they feel even less of a need to stick to tradition than Deering does. For instance on this Athena they use guitar tuners instead of banjo tuners. Don't be fooled, though, there's a reason guitar and banjo tuners aren't the same. Banjo tuners might seem sloppy since they have very low tuning ratios compared to the 18:1 you see guitars tuners having now, but like I say tuning the banjo to fit songs during a performance is common so you need those tuners to work quick.
Anyway, I've maybe gone through my spiel, let me know if you have any questions. There's a lot to take in. Don't take me as an expert! Some of this is just my opinion over my own little banjo journey.
You'll find experts here, though.
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.
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Larry Mal
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Re: Can we talk about banjos?
Oh, I said I would talk about capos. Well, there's the usual type of capo I'm sure you know, Shubb is always good here just like on guitar.
But you've got to account for that fifth string, and there's a variety of ways to do it. This is what is on my banjo, I think it's best, it's just a bar that the little capo "finger" slides up and down.
It's really fun and easy to use.
The older method was these "spikes", you hammer them in and just tuck the string under them. Usually you just put them on frets that correspond to the commonly used keys. I find this to be much more invasive and less versatile.
Regardless, you'll want something. Alternate tuning is, if anything, more important on the banjo than the guitar.
But you've got to account for that fifth string, and there's a variety of ways to do it. This is what is on my banjo, I think it's best, it's just a bar that the little capo "finger" slides up and down.
It's really fun and easy to use.
The older method was these "spikes", you hammer them in and just tuck the string under them. Usually you just put them on frets that correspond to the commonly used keys. I find this to be much more invasive and less versatile.
Regardless, you'll want something. Alternate tuning is, if anything, more important on the banjo than the guitar.
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.
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Telliot
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Re: Can we talk about banjos?
Larry, yer the best. 
I was hoping you'd chime in here since I was aware you were into banjos from your past posts. I've really been on the fence about whether open-back was the way to go, thank you for explaining that so eloquently. I kept wondering if it wouldn't be easy enough to just remove the resonator if I wanted an open-back sound, and you pretty much confirmed that. Truthfully I don't know exactly what I'm looking for, but I do know I want something that is versatile and well made that I can grow old(er) with.
As you say, there don't seem to be a ton of good middle range instruments, but the hole in the market does seem to be closing a bit over the last 10 years or so. The Recording King Elite series seems like a good candidate in this regard, but I'm only going off videos and random posts online. I'd like to buy something built in the US, but I think this will likely get me up into that $3k stratosphere. I don't mind saving up and buying something in that range, but there's always the fear I won't use it as much as I'd like to justify the expense. I think this is something I need to get over and just try and find a well made instrument I can enjoy learning to play. (Your comment about Deering being akin to Taylor makes me want to run quickly in the opposite direction, but that's mainly because I've never played a Taylor that inspired me or felt good in my hands, let alone sound good. That said, the Sierra does look like a pretty amazing option.)
Additionally, your advice on mutes and capos is really valuable. I've seen people using rags and other things to mute their banjos but I don't know enough about them to understand exactly what or why they're muting. (I presume it's exactly like muting a snare drum and this is to control how much the head rings?) Ditto on the capos; I was wondering whether spikes were the way to go on the 5th string, but they seem obtrusive if you ever wanted to fret or do slides on those frets when they aren't being used.
And yeah, I have no interest in a 6-string banjo. That's just a plucky guitar that completely defeats the purpose in my estimation (and sounds really nothing like a banjo since the strumming hand technique is such a big part of that sound).
5-string or bust, baby!
I was hoping you'd chime in here since I was aware you were into banjos from your past posts. I've really been on the fence about whether open-back was the way to go, thank you for explaining that so eloquently. I kept wondering if it wouldn't be easy enough to just remove the resonator if I wanted an open-back sound, and you pretty much confirmed that. Truthfully I don't know exactly what I'm looking for, but I do know I want something that is versatile and well made that I can grow old(er) with.
As you say, there don't seem to be a ton of good middle range instruments, but the hole in the market does seem to be closing a bit over the last 10 years or so. The Recording King Elite series seems like a good candidate in this regard, but I'm only going off videos and random posts online. I'd like to buy something built in the US, but I think this will likely get me up into that $3k stratosphere. I don't mind saving up and buying something in that range, but there's always the fear I won't use it as much as I'd like to justify the expense. I think this is something I need to get over and just try and find a well made instrument I can enjoy learning to play. (Your comment about Deering being akin to Taylor makes me want to run quickly in the opposite direction, but that's mainly because I've never played a Taylor that inspired me or felt good in my hands, let alone sound good. That said, the Sierra does look like a pretty amazing option.)
Additionally, your advice on mutes and capos is really valuable. I've seen people using rags and other things to mute their banjos but I don't know enough about them to understand exactly what or why they're muting. (I presume it's exactly like muting a snare drum and this is to control how much the head rings?) Ditto on the capos; I was wondering whether spikes were the way to go on the 5th string, but they seem obtrusive if you ever wanted to fret or do slides on those frets when they aren't being used.
And yeah, I have no interest in a 6-string banjo. That's just a plucky guitar that completely defeats the purpose in my estimation (and sounds really nothing like a banjo since the strumming hand technique is such a big part of that sound).
5-string or bust, baby!
The cool thing about fretless is you can hit a note...and then renegotiate.
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Telliot
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Re: Can we talk about banjos?
Also, and I wouldn't have ever thought this would be the case, the banjo is one instrument where I actually like some ornamentation. I can't stand it on most things, but it somehow seems appropriate on a banjo; like they're too plain without it.
The cool thing about fretless is you can hit a note...and then renegotiate.
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JSett
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Re: Can we talk about banjos?
I tried one, an old 50s Kay banjo. Unfortunately for me the neck was terribly bowed (unfixable) so I gave it away. But I did get to play it a little (only the first 5 frets) and really enjoyed it.
I wouldn't get a 6 string but I would have a 4. I used a cloth wedged in the back to quieten it down. Between the crossbar and head is a great spot and you can just fold and reposition until you find the right balance.
I will buy another, less screwed, banjo at some point and give it another go. Probably a 4 stringer as I'm more about Gaelic than bluegrass
I wouldn't get a 6 string but I would have a 4. I used a cloth wedged in the back to quieten it down. Between the crossbar and head is a great spot and you can just fold and reposition until you find the right balance.
I will buy another, less screwed, banjo at some point and give it another go. Probably a 4 stringer as I'm more about Gaelic than bluegrass
Silly Rabbit, don't you know scooped mids are for kids?
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Telliot
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Re: Can we talk about banjos?
I saw your post about the Kay. It's a bummer its neck was so warped, but I'm happy to hear you haven't been discouraged from trying again in the future. I don't know exactly what it is that draws me to the banjo, but I really like what it can add to an arrangement and the playing techniques really intrigue me. I guess as someone who started on piano and plays a lot of Travis-style acoustic guitar, the banjo feels like a natural step in my progression.
The cool thing about fretless is you can hit a note...and then renegotiate.
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Larry Mal
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Re: Can we talk about banjos?
Yeah, the banjo is an instrument that really lends itself to some ornamentation. Among other things, the banjo came from very basic beginnings, they used to make them out of hollowed out gourds in some places. By the time the bluegrass players rolled around, they wanted a very impressive instrument that looked modern and sharp.
There's a lot of used Sierras out there-
This one, which you notice has the dot inlays.
This one you see they've added the fancier inlays in the fretboard. There may be some other changes- namely the tone ring. But that's what I'm talking about.
I can't speak all that well to tone rings. There's a lot of them. Go to Banjo Hangout for that if you want to know more, I just accepted that Deering would always have a good tone ring and I didn't need to know more about them.
I got my Standard- later the Sierra- for $600 or so. Deering has sold a lot of banjos over the years and are a very big manufacturer of them at this point, so the used deals will tend to live there.
Absolutely buy used- banjos are very tough.
But like I say Recording King and Gold Tone also take the banjo seriously.
I would like to buy another one, actually. My banjo is all I could realistically ever need but when did that stop anyone around here. And anyway I'd like to develop my ear a bit by hearing the contrast- they say Deering is a more "modern" sound instead of a vintage one but that doesn't really mean all that much to me.
I found this nice Deering Deluxe, I guess as opposed to my "Standard" in the earlier lineup before they had branched off into so many models. Not sure what made it Deluxe but it's probably a great banjo.
Also, I have been looking at Gibson banjos- thanks, Todd- and I see the "RB" designation is used for the five strings, I guess that's different than the "TB" or "tenor banjo" line.
What seems to be the distinction is the "Mastertone" branding like you see here. From what I gather, "Mastertone" means great things. However, like I say, there are a lot of counterfeits out there.
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.
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JSett
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Re: Can we talk about banjos?
I have these people saved for when I decide to buy another....
https://www.bmfolk.co.uk/banjos/4-string-banjos.html
https://www.bmfolk.co.uk/banjos/4-string-banjos.html
Silly Rabbit, don't you know scooped mids are for kids?
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Telliot
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Re: Can we talk about banjos?
I prefer to buy used whenever possible, so way ahead of you on that one.
The cool thing about fretless is you can hit a note...and then renegotiate.
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Larry Mal
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Re: Can we talk about banjos?
I figured, still I felt I would say something. I was a little surprised to see the Sierra selling new for over $3k.
Last edited by Larry Mal on Thu Aug 31, 2023 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.
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Larry Mal
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Re: Can we talk about banjos?
What are you looking to spend?
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.
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Telliot
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Re: Can we talk about banjos?
Right now everything is exploratory, but I’d rather spend more to get a better instrument. I’m thinking ~$2k on the used market? I’m not sure how accurate or realistic that number is, to be honest.
The cool thing about fretless is you can hit a note...and then renegotiate.
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Embenny
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Re: Can we talk about banjos?
Whoah, that's a lot of great info, Larry.
I've always wanted to get into banjo but have never taken the plunge. Clawhammer in particular has always fascinated me, both as a technique as well as the musical result, though ironically I'd probably pick up bluegrass style fingerpicking more easily given how much fingerpicking I do on guitar. From the videos I've watched, clawhammer seems like a totally different thing in terms of right hand technique, but the new challenge would also be half the fun.
I've always wanted to get into banjo but have never taken the plunge. Clawhammer in particular has always fascinated me, both as a technique as well as the musical result, though ironically I'd probably pick up bluegrass style fingerpicking more easily given how much fingerpicking I do on guitar. From the videos I've watched, clawhammer seems like a totally different thing in terms of right hand technique, but the new challenge would also be half the fun.
The artist formerly known as mbene085.
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Larry Mal
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Re: Can we talk about banjos?
That'll get you a banjo that will serve you the rest of your life with no limitations, I'd imagine. I keep focusing on Deering, but you know, put up a post on that Banjo Hangout forum and solicit ideas at your price point. You'll get a flood of things that I wouldn't have the imagination to think of.
Deering is a great company, though. I have that Standard and it was bought in 1990 or something, and the guy who sold it to me- wonderful guy- really kind of geeked out on the banjo. He would write letters to Deering about his banjo and they would print the responses on dot matrix paper and send them to him. It'll all in the case, it's really adorable. He got a Deering membership card and that's in there also- I mean it meant something to the guy, he was exited to get his membership card.
The letters are signed by Janet Deering.
You'll get that, though. People that make banjos are in it because they are great instruments, sure, but also because they are very interested in keeping that culture alive.
Mike, there's a lot of techniques for banjo, but you can also just do anything you would do on other instruments on them. That fifth string is not something you find on other instruments, whether you use it as a drone or actually fret it (you'll do both), it's going to really give you a lot to explore there.
However, there is a technique called "frailing" that I'm not very good at but it's pretty cool.
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.