NGD: '64 Mustang - well, this is proving to be a damn mess

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NGD: '64 Mustang - well, this is proving to be a damn mess

Post by JSett » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:34 pm

Last night I traded my Japanese Mosrite for this 1964 Mustang. All I'd seen was some shitty pictures and was told it was 'mostly original, probably refinish, some issues'. It was only about an hours drive away so thought I'd take a chance for a pre-CBS Fender. I couldn't do much apart from quickly crack the neck and test it worked so this morning I got to pulling it apart and having a look. It did come with it's original case which was a nice bonus.

Any help with this would be great, this is my first Mustang of this era...
(images are all clickable for larger size/resolution)

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Neck date checks out (and a super thin veneer!):

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Ridges on the tuners are almost gone! Not sure these are original?:

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That's definitely a replacement decal:

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That crack on the headstock doesnt seem too deep and looks to have been glue-filled at some point:

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Vibrato looks beat, but all good:

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Piher pots and plastic wire? Damn, oh well:

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Things get weird under the hood:

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It looks like at some point the tabs on the pickups and covers broke(?) so someone glued some bobbin bottoms on. Or is this something else?? Not sure I've ever seen this before...

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Onto the paint. If this is a refin (I'm not sure now), then it's pretty old, damn thin and definitely nitro:

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***

SO, opinions, thoughts etc would be great. The plan (if this came to me) was to get a refin done by Rexter. This was based on it supposedly being a refin already. If that's under question... should I rethink that plan? I'm not even that big a fan of red guitars (and already have another red '64 coming at some point too - albeit a heavily modified one) but is there enough unoriginal here that I shouldn't worry too much? It's definitely a 'players' guitar already.

Decisions, decisions
Last edited by JSett on Wed Jun 30, 2021 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NGD: '64 Mustang - what's going on here then?/is this a refin?

Post by JSett » Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:51 am

Other points of note now I've put it all back together and given it a setup of sorts:

1) the pickguard has shrunk to the point that you can only get it seated with one of the pickups slighty off level (maybe 15deg?). A few of the screws are at funny angles too. Not wholly uncommon, but an annoyance still. Doesn't affect playability

2) the refret it has had at some point, although a relatively tidy job, has not been levelled at all well. probably about 7 frets that have high spots in various places around the neck. An easy job for my local go-to guy for 'destructive' work. Definitely affects playability

Those aside, it sounds great through my old Champ and pedals & the neck is at that nice almost glossy/almost satin stage of played in.

I'm trying to work out a way to remove those bobbin 'repairs' to check out the pickup markings but they seem to be possibly superglued on :fp:

How it currently sits (the fretboard went *super* dark after an oiling which is lovely):

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Re: NGD: '64 Mustang - what's going on here then?/is this a refin?

Post by Embenny » Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:38 pm

I hate to say it, but I think you got taken for a bit of a ride. Almost every part has evidence of being non-original. I've owned four L series '64-'65 Mustangs and these are my observations. I'm just on a phone at the moment, but these were apparent to me.

Neck:
1) Tuners aren't original. Wrong stamping, even the shape is a bit off.

2) Neck plate is an aged modern repro. Many sanding marks from the aging, stamp is the wrong font/thickness/transition from flat to stamped.

3) Headstock decal, as you noted.

Body:
1) The roundover looks like too tight a radius, telling me this is likely a completely non-original body. You can't really end up with a more square roundover during a strip and refinish, at least not in this regular a fashion. All my L-series slab Mustangs had a much more rounded appearance from a larger radius roundover bit. Could be the angles of the photos, but that's my impression.

2) If I'm seeing that wrong on my phone, it still looks like non-original finish to me. The neck pocket paint stick void is normally the left 2/3rds of the pocket. Here, it occupies over 3/4, and yet there's traces of a darker, non-matching red paint in the void, across a larger territory than you'd normally find on this era of Fender. There are also gouges in the wood. This is inconsistent with any original finish methods or refinish methods I've seen from the Fender factory of this era, and doesn't really make sense to me even as a non-Fender refinish, because I still don't know how you'd get both gouges and paint in that paint stick void region.

3) Pickguard looks non-original. Biggest tell is that, at least in these photos, the bevel looks like the modern, steep angle and not the shallower angle of this era (which shows up as thicker layers being visible at the edge).

5) The pots, as you noted.

6) The bridge. That isn't a vintage Mustang bridge. Vintage ones have a bigger, rounded weld point at the posts.

7) The pickups. That's a new one I've never seen before, gluing Jaguar bottom bobbins onto the Mustang ones. But beyond the repair job, something else seems off. I've owned many examples of both the pre-CBS black bobbin duosonic/musicmaster pickups and the grey-bobbin Mustang /duosonic/MM pickups. The top surface of the bottom bobbins appears black, but the bottom is a dark grey (from what I can see sticking out from the Jaguar grey bobbin).

Actual black-bobbin Fender pickups are equally black on the top and bottom surface. The grey-bobbin Mustang pickups are much lighter on both surfaces. I've never seen black bobbins in a Mustang personally, the ones I've acquired came from pretty CBS DS or MM guitars, but even if they did put some in a '64 Mustang, those don't look like them to me. I don't see those as being original.

Edit: I now realize one bottom bottom is grey and one is black, so I was looking at the top of one and the bottom of the other. Together with the replacement decal but the correct-looking 8 model code (which was used for all 24" Mustang, DS, and MMs), it's possible that they used some original parts of a 1-pickup MM to recreate or restore a Mustang, by changing the decal and adding a second pickup. That would be my current leading hypothesis.
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Re: NGD: '64 Mustang - what's going on here then?/is this a refin?

Post by MechaBulletBill » Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:09 pm

wow, powerful info from the sherlock holmes of mustangs!

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Re: NGD: '64 Mustang - what's going on here then?/is this a refin?

Post by Embenny » Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:45 pm

I'd be happy to be proven wrong on any of the above counts. I've just had more vintage slab Mustangs and Mustang parts in my hands than any other vintage Fender, so I felt I had something to offer. Obviously, done at distance and through a screen. I don't claim any kind of definitive authority, just my opinion.
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Re: NGD: '64 Mustang - what's going on here then?/is this a refin?

Post by DaddyDom » Wed Jun 30, 2021 7:39 pm

Wow, I am as fascinated as f**k by this!

As an observer, I have no opinions either way unless it was misrepresented (It may still be a nice guitar!) but I have so many further questions about the points raised by mbene085. To be clear, I don't doubt or agree with anything, I just want to learn. Thanks in advance!
Many sanding marks from the aging, stamp is the wrong font/thickness/transition from flat to stamped.
The sanding I know about well, having had a similar, crappy "pre-aged" example shipped from a so-called very reliable specialist builder. Could you please post a snap of a genuine one so I can understand the difference between the correct flat/stamped transition? (Incidentally, my plate-maker was at great pains to stress his number-stamper was exceptionally rare and identical to Leo's.)
The bridge. That isn't a vintage Mustang bridge. Vintage ones have a bigger, rounded weld point at the posts.
I can't even SEE a weld-point or don't know what I'm looking for lol! (older eyes)
Tuners aren't original. Wrong stamping, even the shape is a bit off.
Do you mean machine stamping? (I can't see any "Kluson" stamping). In which way is the shape off? On the tuner body or the white buttons? Again, a comparison photo of originals would be great if you have one.

Thanks, DD

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Re: NGD: '64 Mustang - what's going on here then?/is this a refin?

Post by JSett » Wed Jun 30, 2021 10:14 pm

mbene085 wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:38 pm
I hate to say it, but I think you got taken for a bit of a ride. Almost every part has evidence of being non-original. I've owned four L series '64-'65 Mustangs and these are my observations. I'm just on a phone at the moment, but these were apparent to me.
Well, I wait for two days and I get a response like this! :D This should be fun :fp: (thanks in advance for taking the time to write all this, oh how I've missed buying/acquiring vintage instruments and their pitfalls!)

Any replies below are, obviously, from someone who is not wholly familiar with Mustangs so mere speculation and observation...

mbene085 wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:38 pm

Neck:
1) Tuners aren't original. Wrong stamping, even the shape is a bit off.

2) Neck plate is an aged modern repro. Many sanding marks from the aging, stamp is the wrong font/thickness/transition from flat to stamped.

3) Headstock decal, as you noted.
Yeah, I'd been studying the tuners since realising something was up and noticed that the shape was wrong, lack of stamping and the 'fold' notches in the corners and had resigned myself to that fact.

I had some more hairline cracks (which are very concerning) in the cold light of day - then I noticed this little mark poking out from behind the high-E tuner - so this morning decided to take one off

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...which is not something I was hoping to see :fp: apart from the spiders-web of cracks I now have to worry about it looks like for a large part of it's life it has sported some later F tuners - that obviously weren't piloted before installation. Great. :fp:

mbene085 wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:38 pm

Body:
1) The roundover looks like too tight a radius, telling me this is likely a completely non-original body. You can't really end up with a more square roundover during a strip and refinish, at least not in this regular a fashion. All my L-series slab Mustangs had a much more rounded appearance from a larger radius roundover bit. Could be the angles of the photos, but that's my impression.

2) If I'm seeing that wrong on my phone, it still looks like non-original finish to me. The neck pocket paint stick void is normally the left 2/3rds of the pocket. Here, it occupies over 3/4, and yet there's traces of a darker, non-matching red paint in the void, across a larger territory than you'd normally find on this era of Fender. There are also gouges in the wood. This is inconsistent with any original finish methods or refinish methods I've seen from the Fender factory of this era, and doesn't really make sense to me even as a non-Fender refinish, because I still don't know how you'd get both gouges and paint in that paint stick void region.
I also was a little unsure about the paintstick mark, and the gouge that seems to be there for no reason at all. Also the amount of white paint on the heel seemed weird - above the body line no-less!

The roundover, well, you be the judge on that. I found a measuring square and by my squinty eyeballing it looks to be approx 7/16th" (or 11mm/12mm). I'm unsure what it's supposed to be? The shielding plates inside the cavities are an almost perfect fit however and don't appear to be reproductions (the solder is very very old, undisturbed and the foam on the one below the switches has mummified rock solid).

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(yes, I forgot to zero the imperial side so I had to count them from 1/16th" in)
mbene085 wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:38 pm

3) Pickguard looks non-original. Biggest tell is that, at least in these photos, the bevel looks like the modern, steep angle and not the shallower angle of this era (which shows up as thicker layers being visible at the edge).
Agreed. I compared it to my '73 pickguard, and a bunch online, and it's actually 4-layer...

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...much like this repro strat one listed on ebay...

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mbene085 wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:38 pm

6) The bridge. That isn't a vintage Mustang bridge. Vintage ones have a bigger, rounded weld point at the posts.
Yep. again agreed. I also noticed yesterday that the adjustment screws also are too long (go all the way to the other side)
mbene085 wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:38 pm

7) The pickups. That's a new one I've never seen before, gluing Jaguar bottom bobbins onto the Mustang ones. But beyond the repair job, something else seems off. I've owned many examples of both the pre-CBS black bobbin duosonic/musicmaster pickups and the grey-bobbin Mustang /duosonic/MM pickups. The top surface of the bottom bobbins appears black, but the bottom is a dark grey (from what I can see sticking out from the Jaguar grey bobbin).

Actual black-bobbin Fender pickups are equally black on the top and bottom surface. The grey-bobbin Mustang pickups are much lighter on both surfaces. I've never seen black bobbins in a Mustang personally, the ones I've acquired came from pretty CBS DS or MM guitars, but even if they did put some in a '64 Mustang, those don't look like them to me. I don't see those as being original.

Edit: I now realize one bottom bottom is grey and one is black, so I was looking at the top of one and the bottom of the other. Together with the replacement decal but the correct-looking 8 model code (which was used for all 24" Mustang, DS, and MMs), it's possible that they used some original parts of a 1-pickup MM to recreate or restore a Mustang, by changing the decal and adding a second pickup. That would be my current leading hypothesis.
This whole pickup situation is fucked up. I have no idea what to make of it. The black top/grey bottom thing I don't know anything about. But it kinda looks a little like this one I pulled from a 79 MM bass...

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They sound pretty good, if a little unbalanced - but that could be because the bridge pickup is at a weird angle due to the plate shrinkage/warping

****

So, in retrospect of all this I have no idea what to do next. The kid I got it from was definitely too dumb to have done this himself - I watched him try to work out how to pull the neck for a good 5 minutes before I had to take over. No way he had the capacity to do anything this elaborate so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt as to pulling a fast-one and expect he was likely sold this at some point and also misled.

I find it really strange that anyone would go to this much effort for such a cheap (until very recently) guitar. Pre-covid these were barely selling for around £1000-1200 even in good condition!

This didn't cost me a penny, just the trade on the old Japanese Mosrite copy, so if anything I'm just a little miffed. I haven't been bitten on something for quite a long time so I was likely overdue something shitty happening.

Note to self: dont go and get a guitar late at night and/or get overly excited
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Re: NGD: '64 Mustang - well, this is proving to be a damn mess

Post by JSett » Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:55 pm

The plot thickens.

I have today off so decided to dig a little deeper into the pickup situation. I warmed them up gently with a hairdryer and pried off the Jaguar bobbins.

Again, clicking on these pictures will give you a zoomed-in high res image

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Apollo Pickups. Google says they're from the Netherlands.

Turns out the bridge pickup also had it's cover glued on. More hairdryer action and some very careful easing off produced this...

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This older looking one appears to have a date of '65 pencilled on but was the glued one and appears to be wrapped so maybe a rewind?

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Hard to make out but does that say 69?...

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One looks very late 60's/70's CBS era. Here it is next to my 79 Musicmaster pickup

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Can I get a collective facepalm?

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Last edited by JSett on Thu Jul 01, 2021 12:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: NGD: '64 Mustang - well, this is proving to be a damn mess

Post by andy_tchp » Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:57 pm

Fuck :(
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Re: NGD: '64 Mustang - well, this is proving to be a damn mess

Post by sal paradise » Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:16 am

I know it must suck to own it, but this guitar must have a super interesting backstory.
I have nothing to offer anybody, except my own confusion?

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Re: NGD: '64 Mustang - well, this is proving to be a damn mess

Post by JSett » Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:18 am

andy_tchp wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:57 pm
Fuck :(
Yup. Not having a good day so far.


I messaged the lad I got it from. He (and I believe him) was shocked and genuinely had bought it from a shop on Reverb in good faith about 2 years ago. I showed him the pictures and explained the main issues as he is clueless about any old guitars, not just Mustangs. He offered to trade back but in a way I felt it's my fault for not checking properly, plus I wont be able to drive down and exchange back for possibly a month, so we've come to an arrangement, and I'm reasoning it with myself like this:

My Mosrite cost me £1200 - not a great deal of money, but not exactly a budget guitar either. It was probably only worth £900-1000 anyway.

Assuming that the body is an original Mustang one (after a bit of googling and more measurements I'm gravitating towards it being legit, even if not a '64. The radius matches close enough and, despite the weird gouge, the neck pocket is a great fit for the neck, as is the vibrato cavity), the neck is definitely a Fender '64 something, the vibrato is vintage as well as the shielding plates so I've got maybe 75% of the big stuff where it should be. And a beaten, but OG case

Best I can do now is learn my lesson, build a partscaster and have it as a player. Things I'd want to put in immediately would be:

£40 - Some repro proper klusons
£120 - Creamery pickups
£20 - CTS pots
£40 - better pickguard
= £210

I explained this to the kid and he straight up just sent me £250 without me having to ask. For someone so young (19 maybe?), and a struggling student, I thought that was pretty decent of him. He could have just blocked me and let me rot.
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Re: NGD: '64 Mustang - well, this is proving to be a damn mess

Post by sal paradise » Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:28 am

So for about £700 you’ll have a Frankenstein vintage somethingstang?

I guess plus some cloth wiring & a refin (assuming you can do those yourself) it’s not a terrible price.
I have nothing to offer anybody, except my own confusion?

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Re: NGD: '64 Mustang - well, this is proving to be a damn mess

Post by PorkyPrimeCut » Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:29 am

Sorry for all the shit you've unearthed.

And welcome to the vintage guitar world, kid. What a baptism of fire!
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Re: NGD: '64 Mustang - well, this is proving to be a damn mess

Post by JSett » Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:40 am

sal paradise wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:28 am
So for about £700 you’ll have a Frankenstein vintage somethingstang?

I guess plus some cloth wiring & a refin (assuming you can do those yourself) it’s not a terrible price.
Yep, I'm not *that* disappointed, just a little. I was going to get Rexter to refinish it but it seems a waste for what is now such a worthless guitar. I can do a lesser refin myself and wiring/rebuilding etc I'm more than okay with fortunately.


PorkyPrimeCut wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:29 am
Sorry for all the shit you've unearthed.

And welcome to the vintage guitar world, kid. What a baptism of fire!
Ironically, back in the 90's as a teenager, I had quite a few old Fender offsets pass through my hands from pawn shops but I never bothered, or thought to, ever take them apart and inspect them... being a young 'punk' I just put strings on and played them then sold them on when I needed to pay the rent/buy weed/eat! It's times like this I wish I still had that blissful lack of desire to dig deeper and just enjoy them hahahah

My '73 Mustang, fortunately, is relatively untouched.
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Re: NGD: '64 Mustang - well, this is proving to be a damn mess

Post by JSett » Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:11 am

Well, idle hands and all that, I got curious with a bottle of acetone. It certainly spent at least some of it's former life as a Mustang of sorts, and in a natural finish!

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What looks to be a filler putty sculpture...

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Then I went full 'man on a mission' and got it all off...

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