Is "vintage = pre-1980" still a useful frame?

Discussion of vintage Jazzmasters, Jaguars, Bass VIs, Electric XIIs and any other offset-waist instruments.
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Larry Mal
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Re: Is "vintage = pre-1980" still a useful frame?

Post by Larry Mal » Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:33 am

øøøøøøø wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:52 am
I don’t think it’s in dispute that boomers drove the vintage guitar thing initially.

I just question whether they’re driving it now
I think that they are driving it less... for instance, Jaguars and Jazzmasters were never all that popular with Boomers, and now have been accepted as collectible and vintage guitars.

But, to sum what I have been saying, my point has been that there is some kind of canon of what is a "vintage" instrument, and it is not based on age nor scarcity necessarily (that's what I've tried to show with my examples of the Lead, the Marauder, and the ES-125). My belief is that canon has been set by what Boomers saw growing up and that's what they came to prefer. That's been passed along, but of course what is canon in this case can change and probably will.

I just looked it up, a 1959 Strat is selling for around $50-60k, and a 1959 Jazzmaster sells for about $15k. What accounts for that difference? It's not age, they are the same age. It's not scarcity, both are scarce. Both are very good guitars, if all you wanted was a guitar.

Plain and simple, it's been the fact that Boomers were willing to pay more for Strats than Jazzmaster, because they saw their guitar heroes playing Strats and not Jazzmasters. And since they were willing to pay more, those guitars are considered to have that value still.
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Re: Is "vintage = pre-1980" still a useful frame?

Post by wooderson » Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:59 am

øøøøøøø wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:23 am
The idea that older instruments were made to a higher standard of quality is usually an illusion.

It’s often demonstrably not true—especially at the very low and very high ends of the market.

There are some instances where you could make a case (low production acoustics like Larson Bros, D’Angelicos, etc). But more often it’s magical thinking—not evidence—that lets us believe the older instruments were made better.
Compared to today, yes. But I'm referring to the initial course of the 'vintage guitar market' which was very much about lines being drawn between Leo guitars and CBS guitars, Norlin guitars and whatever Gibson was before then. I don't think it's really a stretch to say that the quality of pre-CBS guitars was superior to 1970s production.
Someone mentioned “nitro versus poly” and that’s a great example—for nearly all the things that a finish is supposed to do, catalyzed polymer finishes are objectively superior.

They’re more durable. They don’t check or yellow as much. They can be applied just as thin (sometimes thinner in practice). They’re more stable over time, less-toxic, less flammable and (especially with low VOC formulations) safer for the environment. Nitro has the edge on spot-repairability, but a modern finish is less likely to *need* repair.
That's not about which finish is better, it's a clear line of demarcation in the vintage guitar market as a concept - the 'nitro-era' Fenders were (and are) more desirable than the poly '70s and later Fenders.
No judgment from me… I also prefer the way it looks and feels! But this is a thoroughly irrational position, driven by emotion. It’s silly to try and engineer an objective justification (IMO)..
It is, but no one's doing that here AFAICT and even on the more blooz-lawyer forums the "nitro lets the wood breathe" stuff seems to have largely fallen by the wayside. Everyone seems to recognize that nitro is primarily an aesthetic consideration.

But... the vintage guitar market (like most collectible markets) is aesthetically driven - the wear of an old guitar, the way a metallic has yellowed or greened, etc..

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Re: Is "vintage = pre-1980" still a useful frame?

Post by HarktheUmpire » Mon Mar 27, 2023 11:31 am

Seems obvious that Gen Xers and Millennials are driving up prices nowadays. Hence the value increase of quirky/rare guitars.

To get back to everyone’s favorite example, Egmonds; I think this is interesting.

That’s clearly way too much to ask for such a poorly made guitar. Note that the words ‚rare‘ and ‚vintage‘ are used to justify the price.

What’s interesting about this particular example, in light of the discussions about different generations of buyers, is that this guitar is most definitely of little or no interest to boomers. The ones who happened to play the things (as kids) will know to stay the hell away, because the only thing it has going for it are its quirky looks.

So who might buy this? I think it really only appeals to millennials and maybe gen Xers(?). But I think it’s mostly millennials like me who roam around on Reverb pushing up the prices of these sorts of guitars, and of the (somewhat) less common Fender and Gibson models too.

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Re: Is "vintage = pre-1980" still a useful frame?

Post by SignoftheDragon » Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:57 pm

Larry Mal wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2023 1:46 pm
Boomer guitarist Steve Vai. I mean, it's not like the man has ever had any hits or real radio play. I bet I would have a very hard time finding anyone under the age of 35 who is an active fan of Mr. Vai. No Millennial is nostalgic for what Steve Vai was doing in the 80s, that's for sure.
Yikes- your ignorance is showing here...

Vai? a Boomer? No real hits or radio play? 80's hard rock not being popular with the kids?

He's a solid staple of the hair-band guitar god pantheon- hardly a boomer thing.

Whitesnake
David Lee Roth's solo stuff

15 million records sold.... lots of radio play, lots of hits. Several Grammys.

The pointy-shreddy-80s stuff has found quite a home with the young'uns these days. Probably a lot of why the JEMs are selling for more.

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Re: Is "vintage = pre-1980" still a useful frame?

Post by Larry Mal » Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:22 pm

SignoftheDragon wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:57 pm


Yikes- your ignorance is showing here...

The pointy-shreddy-80s stuff has found quite a home with the young'uns these days. Probably a lot of why the JEMs are selling for more.
I actually saw Steve Vai play with Whitesnake back in the day. Yikes indeed. He had a heart shaped guitar with three necks on it that spun and he would spin it around across his chest, shredding the whole time. Pretty excruciating.

Steve Vai was born in 1960, and the US Census Bureau defines the Baby Boom generation as between 1946 and 1964, so yeah, Steve is a Boomer.

Regarding his popularity, I tell you what I'll do. I manage a bunch of university age student workers, some are from Japan, some from India, so from all around. I'll ask them if they've heard of Steve Vai and get back to you. I have a pretty good idea what I'll find, but you never know, I guess. I'll be sure to remind them about David Lee Roth's solo career and how Steve Vai was part of that as early as 34 years ago.
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Re: Is "vintage = pre-1980" still a useful frame?

Post by øøøøøøø » Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:30 pm

Larry Mal wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:33 am
I just looked it up, a 1959 Strat is selling for around $50-60k, and a 1959 Jazzmaster sells for about $15k. What accounts for that difference? It's not age, they are the same age. It's not scarcity, both are scarce. Both are very good guitars, if all you wanted was a guitar.

Plain and simple, it's been the fact that Boomers were willing to pay more for Strats than Jazzmaster, because they saw their guitar heroes playing Strats and not Jazzmasters. And since they were willing to pay more, those guitars are considered to have that value still.
The price is set by supply and demand, and the Strat and Tele are more-canonical instruments than the Jazzmaster.

Crucially, many of the guitars that became canonized did so due to the enduring work of people who were older than boomers. The Beatles were/are not boomers. Buddy Holly was not a boomer. Chet Atkins, Albert King, BB King, Hubert Sumlin, Jimmy Page, Jimi Hendrix, Keith Richards (we could keep going)... all born before the end of WWII.

The enduring nature of the work of a cadre of pioneering artists is what keeps the price of these instruments high (and will likely do so even after there are no more boomers).

Paganini and everyone from his generation have been dead for a long time, but the instruments of Stradivari are still worth a fuckton... because the music is canonical, and so is are the instruments' place within it.

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Re: Is "vintage = pre-1980" still a useful frame?

Post by øøøøøøø » Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:33 pm

wooderson wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:59 am

Compared to today, yes. But I'm referring to the initial course of the 'vintage guitar market' which was very much about lines being drawn between Leo guitars and CBS guitars, Norlin guitars and whatever Gibson was before then. I don't think it's really a stretch to say that the quality of pre-CBS guitars was superior to 1970s production.
...
That's not about which finish is better, it's a clear line of demarcation in the vintage guitar market as a concept - the 'nitro-era' Fenders were (and are) more desirable than the poly '70s and later Fenders.
...
It is, but no one's doing that here AFAICT and even on the more blooz-lawyer forums the "nitro lets the wood breathe" stuff seems to have largely fallen by the wayside. Everyone seems to recognize that nitro is primarily an aesthetic consideration.

But... the vintage guitar market (like most collectible markets) is aesthetically driven - the wear of an old guitar, the way a metallic has yellowed or greened, etc..
Fair enough on all points!
Larry Mal wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:22 pm
Regarding his popularity, I tell you what I'll do. I manage a bunch of university age student workers, some are from Japan, some from India, so from all around. I'll ask them if they've heard of Steve Vai and get back to you. I have a pretty good idea what I'll find, but you never know, I guess. I'll be sure to remind them about David Lee Roth's solo career and how Steve Vai was part of that as early as 34 years ago.
You might be surprised! With a big caveat.

Media are a lot more compartmentalized/siloed now than in the 1990s and early 2000s, so you'd have to get lucky by asking the right University-age student workers.

But Vai is definitely enjoying a resurgence among certain Gen Z musicians (Jacob Collier is someone who has used him as a guest a few times, and his audience skews very "young virtuoso")

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Re: Is "vintage = pre-1980" still a useful frame?

Post by SignoftheDragon » Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:33 pm

You believe everything the gov'mint tells you?

So, does it just jump right from Boomers to Gen X?

I guess technically since he was born in the boomer timeline... but almost nothing in his career or life had anything to do with that generation.

If I said 'boomer guitarist,' who would you think of? Hendrix? Clapton? Keef? Townsend? Probably not EVH, Vai, or the heavy metal peeps- even if some were born under the sign of the boomer.

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Re: Is "vintage = pre-1980" still a useful frame?

Post by øøøøøøø » Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:43 pm

SignoftheDragon wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:33 pm
If I said 'boomer guitarist,' who would you think of? Hendrix? Clapton? Keef? Townsend?
None of these were born before the end of WWII (though Clapton and Townshend were close!)

They were guitarists that boomers admired, which is typically a very different thing from "boomer guitarist"

I grew up listening to music made by people about 10-20 years older than me, usually.

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Re: Is "vintage = pre-1980" still a useful frame?

Post by SignoftheDragon » Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:48 pm

Yeah, maybe I'm making a moot point... I'll concede.

Back on topic then-

I like the 1980 cutoff. Keeps the Originals original, and the re-issues where they belong. It works for this forum, and though the general idea of 'vintage' will evolve as time goes on, I think it's still a relevant distinction here.

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Re: Is "vintage = pre-1980" still a useful frame?

Post by wooderson » Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:56 pm

If you asked me to name the king of the "boomer guitarists" I'd name one of those they admired as youths. Probably Clapton - someone known chiefly as a 'guitar god' rather than singer/songwriter and has fallen off mightily with later generations. The coked-out dreck he put out in the '70s and the way he dressed like a coked-out Wall Street guy in the '80s cement his position.

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Re: Is "vintage = pre-1980" still a useful frame?

Post by Larry Mal » Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:18 pm

øøøøøøø wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:30 pm


The price is set by supply and demand, and the Strat and Tele are more-canonical instruments than the Jazzmaster.

Crucially, many of the guitars that became canonized did so due to the enduring work of people who were older than boomers. The Beatles were/are not boomers. Buddy Holly was not a boomer. Chet Atkins, Albert King, BB King, Hubert Sumlin, Jimmy Page, Jimi Hendrix, Keith Richards (we could keep going)... all born before the end of WWII.

The enduring nature of the work of a cadre of pioneering artists is what keeps the price of these instruments high (and will likely do so even after there are no more boomers).

Paganini and everyone from his generation have been dead for a long time, but the instruments of Stradivari are still worth a fuckton... because the music is canonical, and so is are the instruments' place within it.
Right, but that's been my point the whole time. Boomers grew up seeing their heroes play certain instruments, and when they got older, they wanted those instruments.

But their combination of deep pockets, large size, and greater interest in the guitar over other generations (citing Mr. Gruhn again) led to them having an outsize influence in the world of the guitar.

I'm the generation right after the Boomers, you know? Let's think of the Fender Lead. Boomers didn't want it, the Greatest Generation sure didn't want it, and my generation didn't have any money because we were nine. So that's the end of the Lead.

Fender, Martin and Gibson all failed to realized that the Boomers would spend a lot of money on guitars as long as those guitars had been played by their music heroes. That's why they all almost went out of business but then recovered by "makin' 'em like they used to" and that's been a very dominant force in the world of guitar overall.

Boomers had established the canon of what "vintage" is.

That's changing, though. Well, the canon is changing. How much I don't know. But the Jem selling for what it is selling for is because of my own generation's nostalgia, we did grow up with Steve Vai. We know that guitar.

Shit, I offered a trade for a Carvin DC127 the other day. And I hated the one I bought in the 90s!

Nostalgia ain't what it used to be, but it's always had me making questionable purchases, and it looks like it always will. It's normal.
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Re: Is "vintage = pre-1980" still a useful frame?

Post by Larry Mal » Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:22 pm

wooderson wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:56 pm
If you asked me to name the king of the "boomer guitarists" I'd name one of those they admired as youths. Probably Clapton - someone known chiefly as a 'guitar god' rather than singer/songwriter and has fallen off mightily with later generations. The coked-out dreck he put out in the '70s and the way he dressed like a coked-out Wall Street guy in the '80s cement his position.
I saw him play too. Man, I used to have a lot of time on my hands. I would have a hard time saying what was worse, Whitesnake or 90s Clapton. Probably Clapton was worse. At least the Whitesnake boys were funny, if not intentionally.

I got free tickets, so I sat at the side of the stage. That's how I come to know that they made the keyboard player play along in a basement room under the stage. He had headphones on. I could see him but almost all the rest of the stadium couldn't.

In the late 80s it simply wouldn't do, you see, for a hard rockin' band like Whitesnake to have some pussy keyboard player on stage with them.
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Re: Is "vintage = pre-1980" still a useful frame?

Post by øøøøøøø » Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:27 pm

SignoftheDragon wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:48 pm
I like the 1980 cutoff. Keeps the Originals original, and the re-issues where they belong. It works for this forum, and though the general idea of 'vintage' will evolve as time goes on, I think it's still a relevant distinction here.
Totally agree for jazzmaster, jaguar, mustang, musicmaster, duo sonic, marauder, starcaster, jazz bass, mustang bass, and Bass VI (did I miss any?).

Where it gets a little trickier IMO is something like a Jag-Stang or a Super-Sonic.

Both of those:
  • are offset-waist Fender (or Squier) guitars
  • are selling for more than double their original selling price (even adjusted for inflation), so could be called "collectible"
  • made their debut over a quarter-century ago
  • have been reissued in the decades since
  • were first made after 1980 (after 1990, in fact!)

Another interesting number (that conveniently doubles as a sobering reminder of the passage of time): A '94 Jag-Stang is now two years older than a '79 Jazzmaster would've been the year this forum was founded.

With all of that in mind, putting original 90s versions of those guitars under the "new and reissue" umbrella feels kinda funny, especially if we want to make a distinction between a 1994 Jag-Stang and a 2023 reissue.

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Re: Is "vintage = pre-1980" still a useful frame?

Post by wooderson » Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:45 pm

Larry Mal wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:22 pm
I saw him play too. Man, I used to have a lot of time on my hands. I would have a hard time saying what was worse, Whitesnake or 90s Clapton. Probably Clapton was worse. At least the Whitesnake boys were funny, if not intentionally.
My high school girlfriend won tickets to see him in 2001... it was possibly the worst professional show I've seen. The sound was terrible, he was boring, he only played one Cream song (to be expected I guess but I was hoping for 2 or 3 at least to justify going). Any given bar cover band would have been a similar experience but at least I could have heard "Tears In Heaven" dropped into a Sublime medley then.

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