NGD - Jagenstein

Discussion of vintage Jazzmasters, Jaguars, Bass VIs, Electric XIIs and any other offset-waist instruments.
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ainm
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NGD - Jagenstein

Post by ainm » Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:42 pm

I would’ve stuck this in the thread I created last week, but bugger it - I've bought loads of guitars since joining here and I've never done a NGD post.

A couple weeks back, I was in the Pacific Northwest, and I must've prowled every guitar store in search of something to take home. Just as I was running to pack up my hotel and go home, I passed a musical gear pawn shop in Capitol Hill, Seattle. I almost didn't go in. But I did and I found this on the racks.

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I thought about taking it there and then and finding some way to fit it in my suitcase. Pressed for time and not really wanting to leave half my clothes in Seattle, I exchanged details with the gentleman in store - just in case - and put it tenderly back on the rack.

Then I arrived home and couldn't stop thinking about it.

I contacted the store; I posted here; I made the deal. They were great - they really went out of their way to get it to me. It arrived yesterday, roughly 36 hours after leaving Seattle. I was so excited that there are no photos of the box.

Of course I've had it apart. Tone pot dates to November '65.
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No idea on the volume. Non-original. Seems a bit low at 250K?
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Assuming the capacitor on the tone pot is a replacement. The SD mini-bucker is obviously not original - I think it's a Lil '59. Everything else in the body could be original to my uninitiated eyes, but I’ll be damned if they can read much of what's on the roller pots - and there's a suspicious bit of tubing there.
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It has brass shielding plates in the cavaties. Wiring appears original, albeit with a re-solder or a new bit dropped in here and there. I don't care - I didn't fall in love with it because it was untouched but because it had been touched and touched a lot. And because the neck felt like home. And because it felt light for a Jag. And because I like my frets low and the frets had just been given the very last crown they'll ever be capable of receiving (at which point I'll get stupidly low steel frets put in). And because I put a humbucker of sorts in the bridge position in every guitar I get, which has kept me away from many vintage Fenders. I never wanted to be that person. Ah... With this guitar, I don't need to be.

At the moment, I'm assuming the body is late '65/early '66 unless anyone can tell me otherwise.
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The pickguard has been cut, possibly to allow it to be taken off without touching the bridge, which rocks but is also somehow rock solid in. I certainly can't get it off. Looks like a Mustang bridge to me but no idea on the year. Despite the bridge rocking, the trem has been blocked. Another mod I do, so just as well as there's no trem arm to get lost in my drawer full of them.

One disappointment was no initials on the back of the pickguard. I don't even know if that's original either, but as it's of that chunk I've seen on vintage Fenders, I'll assume so for the time being. Doesn't really matter to me, but if it is, then a pawprint on the back would've been a lovely, sentimental touch. A shame about that.

Grounding lug in the trem route.
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It has a non-original neck plate. No idea if it was grabbed off a random other guitar or if it has been stamped to match the original neck plate. I think it would be a '65 serial if it had an L prefix before it? It may be visible in this pic.
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The neck dates to July '67. Daphne blue Musicmaster/Duo-Sonic II/Mustang going by the stamp.
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Assuming there wasn’t any difference between the headstocks of those in '67 (or between them and Jags as it’s a bang-on match to my other Jags' headstocks). My partner wants it to be a Mustang neck so she can call it Frankenstang, which is admittedly a cooler, if less accurate, name. The neck has been on another non-original body - or someone has tried to put it on another body and likely messed up, going by the second set of screw-holes, two of them visible from the back with the neck bolted on. The neck pocket has matching paint, so I'm assuming it has been in there a long time. And also probably bad news for those who use matching paint patterns as proof that a neck is original to a body (sorry!)

The body has probably had a refin at some point. Maybe a deep purple, but I'm going assume it was done to match the headstock and parts of the black have simply faded. At least I assume it's had a refin. There's some red here and there in the cavaties. Maybe a gold undercoat?
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The fretboard is lovely. I treated and oiled it before putting strings on, and it does feel very, very nice. But maybe I prefer the fretboards on my Japanese Fenders :ph34r:

It weighs 3.45KG (7.72lbs) and is way lighter than my modern Jags, except maybe the 60th anniversary one (which I've never weighed). Must be those extra set of screw holes in the neck and all that incredibly heavy paint that has worn and flaked away. Am I right in thinking that 7.7lbs is an insane weight for a Jag? I'm sure some Mustangs almost weight that. I was so aware of the weight of it when I picked it up that I asked the gentleman in the shop if he had scales (he didn't). That and I was jotting up how many clothes I'd need to throw away. I was working on the assumption that it had been given a swimming pool route - that's how light it felt.

I assume the neck pickup is original, but couldn't get any info from it as I didn't want to prise the claw off. I'm a bridge pickup person who is slowly beginning to appreciate neck pickups. Honestly, for 20 years I don't think I ever went there because I started on Strats and I hate Strat neck pickups. When I moved onto Jags - "The rhythm switch puts just the neck pickup on? Nah, not interested. What button down here switches the neck off on the other circuit?". Anyway, the neck pickup is so very sweet. It sounds gorgeous - warm, sonorous and complex. I don't think I've had a neck pickup this nice before, although admittedly I wouldn't know even if I had (had had?)

And yeah, down below the whole guitar is dirty AF. It's actually really very clean - they did a good job looking after it at the shop. But there are decades and decades of stuff if you dig underneath everything. Tone mojo, I think it's called. And isn't that like most people - scented on the surface and a hot mess underneath? At least the ones I've chopped up have been like that.

I gave it enough of a clean as I could underneath without being too aggressive. Here it is just before I put some strings on.
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Now it looks like it sounds - filthy shimmery.

I had a good chat with the owner of the store too. He says he's had the guitar put aside for 20 or 30 years and reckons it came through Mike Lull's workshop. I had no idea who Mike Lull was, but if he really did do jobs on the guitars of those that the internet claims, super cool. The store owner has a few guitars that he may be bringing to market soon and I've had a sneak peak. Rickenbackers, Gretchs, Gibsons and Fenders; 60 and 70's mainly and some newer ones. Decent amount of basses too. Some Banjos. Quite a few acoustics - I think I dated one to the 40's from the picture, but it was late and I can't remember what it was (I focused in on the left-handed 70's Mustang in sunburst and my mind didn't retain much beyond that). Might put a thread up in the For Sale section if he'll let me share the pics, although there's nothing yet actually for sale. I got the impression that stuff he put aside probably has a story attached.

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Re: NGD - Jagenstein

Post by Jonesie » Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:57 pm

Oh I am so into this. Someone call Pat, because the mini-humbucker neck jag has a sibling.

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Re: NGD - Jagenstein

Post by MattK » Thu Jul 13, 2023 2:51 pm

That is incredible. Ten times better than some pristine vintage original. Hope it was a good deal!

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Re: NGD - Jagenstein

Post by nashmaster » Thu Jul 13, 2023 9:07 pm

Absolutely fantastic.

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Re: NGD - Jagenstein

Post by Pacafeliz » Thu Jul 13, 2023 9:10 pm

Jonesie wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:57 pm
Oh I am so into this. Someone call Pat, because the mini-humbucker neck jag has a sibling.
Dude I love it. That color thing looks like shit which is kinda great :blush:
Man this thing has some history. :-*

Only not liking the black headstock with the wrong, white logo.
But an amazing find. Mojo n all y'know

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i love delay SO much ...that i procrastinate all the time.

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Re: NGD - Jagenstein

Post by PJazzmaster » Fri Jul 14, 2023 5:14 am

Yes, 7.7lbs is an insane weight for a Jag!!
Awesome! The lightest I ever had in my hands was about 7,8 lbs (a bit more than 3,5 kg).

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Re: NGD - Jagenstein

Post by MechaBulletBill » Fri Jul 14, 2023 6:03 am

i love it!

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Re: NGD - Jagenstein

Post by gishuk » Fri Jul 14, 2023 7:37 am

I would have left half my clothes for that anyday ;D

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Re: NGD - Jagenstein

Post by garyptaszek » Fri Jul 14, 2023 7:59 am

This is the coolest Jag I've seen. Are you gonna roll with it as is? I'm assuming thats a Duncan mini 59 in the bridge? How's it sound?

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Re: NGD - Jagenstein

Post by Highnumbers » Fri Jul 14, 2023 10:28 am

Super cool, and you got a great story finding it in Seattle.

Enjoy! This Jag has loads of character.

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Re: NGD - Jagenstein

Post by Pacafeliz » Sat Jul 15, 2023 12:53 am

Assuming the white guard is original, it's very likely that the red (CAR) in the routes is original too...
i love delay SO much ...that i procrastinate all the time.

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Re: NGD - Jagenstein

Post by ainm » Sat Jul 15, 2023 7:40 am

MatthewK wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2023 2:51 pm
That is incredible. Ten times better than some pristine vintage original. Hope it was a good deal!
Cheaper than an offset AP II. Or would’ve been had I left my clothes behind. There were import duties and sales tax on top of that. So not a bargain, but very happy with what I paid. I think both the seller and I did well - one of those happy occasions where the correct buyer and seller found one another. And some silly people have been buying 10, 20 yr old Japanese Jags for a few hundred quid less.
PJazzmaster wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2023 5:14 am
Yes, 7.7lbs is an insane weight for a Jag!!
Awesome! The lightest I ever had in my hands was about 7,8 lbs (a bit more than 3,5 kg).
TBF, I weighed it without strings and a term arm. On the other hand, there must be a kilo of nuts locking down the term where the spring goes. Someone really wanted it locked. Just about did my shoulder in lifting the plate.
gishuk wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2023 7:37 am
I would have left half my clothes for that anyday ;D
I got funny looks when I started to strip off in the store and thought it best to stop. And I over went with a half empty suitcase, but had managed to fill it to bursting with t-shirts by then. Lesson learned. Next time, I’ll buy an extra bag.
garyptaszek wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2023 7:59 am
This is the coolest Jag I've seen. Are you gonna roll with it as is? I'm assuming thats a Duncan mini 59 in the bridge? How's it sound?
It sounds great. I don’t really go for vintage guitars - the oldest I have is an ‘81 or ‘82 Bullet with the standard strat pickups from that era. I had the same impression plugging in the Jag as I did that guitar. It felt less aggressive, but the sounds coming out were fuller/more complex than my modern guitars. It’s not a loud guitar, but it’s quiet in all the correct ways. Not really any hum on the neck and I’m pleasantly surprised by the bass cut - while that switch makes a perceptible difference on my modern guitars, it’s like a whole other circuit on this one. Feels more like a jangle/growl switch than the subtle effect I’m used to. Don’t know how much of that is down to quality, aging, that 250k volume pot or the ‘59 in the mix, but I like it.

The ‘59 isn’t a humbucker I have on any other guitar. I’d been looking for a cheap secondhand one for a while - either the baby or the full thing - so that’s another happy accident with this guitar. I like it - it’s something a bit different. The poles are manky/corroded looking, and I’m not brave enough to try adjusting them, but it has been set to the same heights as the neck pickup and sounds great as is, so I’ll take that. If it packs in I’ll replace it, but until then very chuffed.

The guitar has also confirmed to me that AOM bridges on a Jag are a crime. The behind the bridge overtones are sublime. I play ancient lyres, which are all about layering sympathetic resonances, so I like a bit of chime. I knew I wanted the guitar without plugging it in.

I’ve the HH Vintera Jag and I thought that was a tone machine. It is, but I feel Stein has more quality across its positions. Dark positions sounds warmer and bright positions sound clearer. The Vintera HH positions sound more like an effects chain, if that makes sense. A little less open/more compressed. I think Stein will be a good recording guitar.

And that’s enough cork sniffing. ;D
Pacafeliz wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2023 9:10 pm
Jonesie wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:57 pm
Oh I am so into this. Someone call Pat, because the mini-humbucker neck jag has a sibling.
Dude I love it. That color thing looks like shit which is kinda great :blush:
Man this thing has some history. :-*

Only not liking the black headstock with the wrong, white logo.
But an amazing find. Mojo n all y'know

PAT SEAL OF APPROVAL
Awesome. The Pat seal of approval means a lot! (And I’m not hot on the headstock either)
Pacafeliz wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2023 12:53 am
Assuming the white guard is original, it's very likely that the red (CAR) in the routes is original too...
I know there’s someone around here who hates CAR. That’s not you, is it? If so, let’s create a little history. This guitar’s original owner sold their drummer’s van to make up the cash plus the extra 5% - just so they could destroy something CAR. Punk rock, dude, way back in ‘65. Sticking it to Leo, and all because they knew that, one distant day away, there’d be a PAT SEAL in it.

Thanks for the replies all. I’ve loved looking at all your guitars in this forum and beyond. Never thought I’d catch the vintage beater bug myself, but damn…

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Re: NGD - Jagenstein

Post by caples » Sat Jul 15, 2023 11:06 am

Yeah 7.7 is definitely really light. The lightest jag I've ever played is my refin '65 which weighs in at 7.6. But my Johnny Marr Jaguar is nearly 9 pounds.
1969 Comp Blue Mustang, 1965 Natural Jaguar

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Re: NGD - Jagenstein

Post by ainm » Sun Jul 16, 2023 8:16 am

caples wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2023 11:06 am
Yeah 7.7 is definitely really light. The lightest jag I've ever played is my refin '65 which weighs in at 7.6. But my Johnny Marr Jaguar is nearly 9 pounds.
Whoa - very nice! Is it more usual to come across a lighter vintage? I can’t ever remember picking up a modern one and thinking it was anything but heavy. The body on this one, by comparison, almost sounds chambered when tapping on it.

***

I’m seriously struggling to put this guitar down. It sounds awesome through every piece of equipment I try it on and just plain makes me feel like a better guitarist. It’s not perfect, but it’s perfect for me. I can see myself clearing out a lot of guitars now.

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Re: NGD - Jagenstein

Post by ohm-men » Sun Jul 16, 2023 10:45 am

Great find! I like how it looks...
These old Jag's are indeed hard to put down... :)

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