"PROJECT '65" ~ FINIS! ~

Bringing your older offset back to life.
Post Reply
User avatar
mjet
Expat
Expat
Posts: 4123
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:03 pm
Location: Prague, Czech Republic

Re: "PROJECT '65" Update! Pics!

Post by mjet » Sun Apr 29, 2007 1:36 pm

RumorsOFsurF wrote: It would seem to me that fact would create a market for licensed "vintage" style necks...
Perhaps, but since Fender makes money on the licensing fee, they're not bothered by it.
"You eventually learn that true priorities are like arms; if you think you have more than a couple, you're either lying or crazy."

User avatar
mcjt
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 4293
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:17 pm
Location: Côte-St-Luc QC

Re: "PROJECT '65" Update! Pics!

Post by mcjt » Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:49 pm

guys,
i own several warmoth necks and bodies. some i have ordered 'custom', some i have bought off the showcase and 2nd hand.
i have dealt with them on trying to get JM-styled necks too....
as it was explained to me:
the necks of the different styles (vintage, vintage modern, and pro) are not only prepared differently, they are cut, shaped, frets cut... everything! on different lathes and CNC machines. You can imagine by the size of inventory on the showcase and the delay for an order that they do a HUGE business and there is high demand. They try to do what they can with the time and equipment--
for example, for them to cut a 21 fret Pro neck, or to have wide spaced dots, etc would need a completely different prg for the CNC machine. And different programming for every possible combination. Yet what they do accomplish meets the expectations of 99% of their clientele.
I asked them for a 21 fret, wide spaced dot pro neck, and they said, 'sorry, a pro neck is prepared differently and we can't take that neck and go to the ancient machine we have for vintage necks and do yours 21 fret. We could do the wide spaced dots, but we would have to do them by hand, instead of on the CNC" (so extra $)
They rely on their high-end installation to make products efficiently, quickly and profitably. They can't grind everything to a halt to make a 'one-off'. Or if they do, it'll cost you. and understandably so.
when i wrote to them about my JM neck project, Ken Warmoth himself wrote to me and took the time to explain why they couldn't do it at this moment. He even told me they were investing in new machinery to take 'custom' to the next level, to answer customer requests like mine....
For that 1% of their clientele....
i think they are trying to keep up with those kitchen table luthiers who want something REALLY custom and unique...

that's my 2 cents. i think they offer a DAMN good product with INCREDIBLE wood selection AND quality. i too wish they could offer every possible combination, but for the moment... they have their limitations. i,m in manufacturing too and i empathize.





i really don't see why they have these limitations. i mean, they have all the templates, why not offer every possible combination of headstock shape/profile/radius/number of frets etc. ?

Because, it seems, today's players don't care about accuracy.  It pisses me off!!  That's why it's like pulling teeth to get a 7.25" radius on a new Fender...Unless it's an AVRI instrument.  Otherwise, it's 9.5 and up.  It would seem to me that fact would create a market for licensed "vintage" style necks... I guess it shows I know nothing!
Member 347

User avatar
sookwinder
Mods
Mods
Posts: 10790
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:47 pm
Location: Melbourne Australia

Re: "PROJECT '65" Update! Pics!

Post by sookwinder » Sun Apr 29, 2007 8:05 pm

mcjt,  while I do understand their argument against the variable options, if that method of production was used in the car industry you could have any colour and style car you liked, as long as it was white and a sedan  (actually that IS what our manufacturing plant would love to make  ... totally one option).

Modern "just in time" (well modern for 30 years) methoids of production means you can manufacture a multitude of variable on the same production line. You just need different jigs to accomodate the variables.

Yes it costs $$$ to get new /additional jigs, but there is obviously a market out there that is wanting a large head strat/JM neck with binding and dots, the initial investment would not be that big and they could say " we make all our low volume necks at the end of the month.. so if you want one it will take 4 weeks"

IMO it is just short sightedness on their part  ....  same as USCG  , they make great necks and bodies , but could not route a strat PUP routes in a Jaguar body  (for 25.5" scale) ... why  ..  just not set up for it ....  how ever if they were set up, people would selct it and they could charge extra becauser it was a non standard option.
relaxing alternative to doing actual work ...

User avatar
cmatthes
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 1488
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:19 pm
Location: DC Burbs

Re: "PROJECT '65" Update! Pics!

Post by cmatthes » Sun Apr 29, 2007 8:42 pm

It simply is not cost-effective for a shop like Warmoth to take the resources away from normal production to work up the CNC program, crank out some test necks/prototypes and then make your neck.  Even if it was, the resources that were taken away from normal production just wouldn't make it worth their while.

I've seen/heard this argument many times before with other guitarmakers and shops.  While I would love to be able to get the stuff I want done exactly to my liking, it isn't always a smart move for a company to cater to less than 1% of their client base with what will ultimately be a money drain.  If they charged you what it would TRULY cost to make that neck, you'd easily be able to afford the real deal, if not an entire vintage guitar.

User avatar
sookwinder
Mods
Mods
Posts: 10790
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:47 pm
Location: Melbourne Australia

Re: "PROJECT '65" Update! Pics!

Post by sookwinder » Sun Apr 29, 2007 10:48 pm

it isn't always a smart move for a company to cater to less than 1% of their client base with what will ultimately be a money drain.  If they charged you what it would TRULY cost to make that neck, you'd easily be able to afford the real deal, if not an entire vintage guitar.
I must respectfully disagree with this....

I work for a car company  (soon to be the world's second largest , we were the first) and the amount of profit we make on the more expensive/rare models is a far higher percentage than that of the more abundant cheaper models.  You need to sell something like 10 small models to make the same profit as selling one large model.  But the actual cost of putting the vehicle together and the tooling costs for the large or the small models are essentially the same.

The same argument/cost analysis can be made for a guitar body/neck manufacturer.  Someone who wants a bound strat like neck with a large headstock maybe willing to pay an extra 30 or 40%.  Just do the maths and work out how many necks you want to sell over what period of time to amatise the cost of the aditional jigs and CNC programming.
If they charged you what it would TRULY cost to make that neck, you'd easily be able to afford the real deal, if not an entire vintage guitar.
 
Of course, if they only ever sold one neck.  But that isn't how mass production economics work.  As I said above, just determine over what period of time you want to pay off the additional cost and how many you think you can sell.  After that it is all pure profit.  Plus you cannot assign all of the costs to the new neck.  perhaps 80% o the costings are already there producing the existing models.

This type of economic costings is how you get the sports cars and the up market SUVs  which only maybe 3 - 8% of the market.  Using your argument everbody would be driving station wagons
relaxing alternative to doing actual work ...

User avatar
mjet
Expat
Expat
Posts: 4123
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:03 pm
Location: Prague, Czech Republic

Re: "PROJECT '65" Update! Pics!

Post by mjet » Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:49 am

This all just goes to show that there's a world of difference between "can't" and "won't".
"You eventually learn that true priorities are like arms; if you think you have more than a couple, you're either lying or crazy."

User avatar
fullerplast
Mods
Mods
Posts: 12710
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:53 am
Location: In My Room

Re: "PROJECT '65" Update! Pics!

Post by fullerplast » Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:12 am

This all just goes to show that there's a world of difference between "can't" and "won't".


Amen. My beef was actually with Allparts. They don't make the stuff they sell. It shouldn't be difficult for them to simply contact their supplier and ask for binding on the big headstock neck.  The big head neck they make is already to vintage specs in regard to radius and truss adjustment. Binding doesn't require extra tooling, just a routing and gluing step (which they are ALREADY doing anyway on the small head neck).

I stand by my previous assumption that they would sell ALOT more of those bound $trat necks if they used the big headstock neck instead of the smaller vintage one. It just seems as though the only barrier is their unwillingness to do so.
Last edited by fullerplast on Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Q. Are we not men?

User avatar
mcjt
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 4293
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:17 pm
Location: Côte-St-Luc QC

Re: "PROJECT '65" Update! Pics!

Post by mcjt » Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:31 am

Adding my 2cents again- i am up to 4 cents....

As i said, I'm in manufacturing. I work for a loudspeaker manufacturer in Europe, and am responsible for the importation, marketing, distribution and sales of loudspeakers in Canada and the US from US$350 MSRP to 90K a pair. We even have a facility in Asia to manufacture life-style speakers. We are engineer-driven and even manufacture our own machinery and tooling to make our loudspeakers!

I had an experience this morning which immediately made me think of this discussion.

I did a one-off, custom finish for one of my clients, a stereo reseller near NYC. I told him he would have to wait as it was custom. he said no problem.

i had to go see my accounting dept so that they would create a special code in our ordering software to allow for a custom finished model.

the order was placed in europe.

after a month and a half delay (order received, processed, sent to the cabinet and lacquer finishing facility, entered into the production schedule, (pls insert Muzak track), speaker actually finished, shipped to assembly facility, assembled, packed, (don't forget that this one speaker in the tens of thousands that are being made for markets all over the world has to be 'tagged' especially for me in north america), packed into container, container shipped to shipping termnial, across the atlantic, customs, to the US facility, unboxed, and then i get the special order for my client... to only find out that the black finish was actually a little glossier (and unacceptably so) than the speakers my client already had.

Soooooooooooooooo----

I get stuck with a one-off product that i can't sell, my client is pissed (coz now he has paid thousands of $ for something he doesn't have), and i have to start all over again.

manufacturing a one-off is not as simple as it may seem. And this was all because of a finish, not retooling or different prep. Walking a one-off through all steps of production, invoicing, ocean transport is a lot of work. and it COSTS. It is not cost-effective. If i don't pass on the cost to him, (and can i justify that he pay more for a simple change of stain colour?), it is passed on to everyone else who buys one of our loudspeakers.

just coz i said, 'I'll make you something special'. It's easier to say 'i can't' or 'i won't.' too much trouble and risk of f*ck-up.

And a last note on neck manufacturing....
Please remember that I related to you the convo when Ken Warmoth told me that they were investing in new machinery to be able to offer more JM-friendly designs. Anyone who wants something special should write to them, or directly to Ken. He was able to make some exceptions for me when i asked nicely.....
Member 347

User avatar
fullerplast
Mods
Mods
Posts: 12710
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:53 am
Location: In My Room

Re: "PROJECT '65" Update! Pics!

Post by fullerplast » Mon May 07, 2007 5:20 am

I just refinished the bound Allparts neck to go on P65. It turned out really nice!

First I stained the whole neck with Valspar Colonial Maple which gave it a golden hue. Then Saturday I did the back of the neck and back/sides of the headstock with Nitro Clear. Yesterday I did the headstock in IBM, actually using 67-69 Pontiac V8 engine paint with Nitro Clear over top. The Pontiac color is a dead ringer for IBM... (I've used it before on my son's $trat which had an IBM body and I did the headstock with the Pontiac color and you would never know).

Here's it is. I didn't add wood to get the correct shape, but I DID cut it into a more JM like shape. It almost fools the eyes, and looks TONS better with a semi-correct shape:

Image

Rough cut before contouring and sanding:

Image

Sanded and stained with Colonial Maple:

Image

Nitro on the back:

Image

The heel. The stain makes a big difference in the look! I also did the binding to better match the aged parts on the body:

Image

Back of neck polished out:

Image

The headstock (not polished yet):

Image

And another shot:

Image


I basically used the Pontiac paint just because I had it on hand. I like IBM, but it's not my first choice. I might change the color after I get a vintage neck (eventually). Of course I'm doing the body too. Currently, it's outside with the final coat of primer on it. I should get some color on it today, unless the moisture content keeps going up like it has so far this morning.

It's looking really good so far!

Image
Last edited by fullerplast on Mon May 07, 2007 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Q. Are we not men?

User avatar
berlinbetty
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 1995
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:57 am
Location: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania

Re: "PROJECT '65" Update! Pics!

Post by berlinbetty » Mon May 07, 2007 5:31 am

  I'm really starting to come around to the "dots & binding" look the more time I spend here.  Instead of gold guards, maybe you should go into business making "d&b" necks for people.  That looks really great!
One more guitar, then I'll practice!

User avatar
Jazzprod
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 1815
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:03 am
Location: Hammarö, Sweden
Contact:

Re: "PROJECT '65" Update! Pics!

Post by Jazzprod » Mon May 07, 2007 7:42 am

Niiiice!!  8)
This is sooo exciting  ::)
......below the apes above the angels.....

warreng
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 890
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 12:46 pm
Location: Telluride

Re: "PROJECT '65" Update! Pics!

Post by warreng » Mon May 07, 2007 9:19 pm

Jazzprod wrote: Niiiice!!   8)
This is sooo exciting  ::)
ahaha

do any of yall see jack in the box commercials? that just reminded me of the one with the guy dressed as an egg
crossaint.... oooo man good laugh.

seriously though, looking sweet. yer right, the neck looks great!

User avatar
fullerplast
Mods
Mods
Posts: 12710
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:53 am
Location: In My Room

Re: "PROJECT '65" Update! Pics!

Post by fullerplast » Sat May 12, 2007 12:31 pm

The first mist coat of blue:

Image

It's very rough due to overspray. I'll polish it out with #600 or #800 prior to the next coat...

Image

This shot shows the true color a little better. The color is really nice, it varies due to the angle and the light:

Image

The "dark side":

Image
Last edited by fullerplast on Sat May 12, 2007 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Q. Are we not men?

User avatar
fenderjapan
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 1047
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:20 am
Location: Kiruna, Sweden

Re: "PROJECT '65" Update! Pics!

Post by fenderjapan » Sat May 12, 2007 12:38 pm

fullerplast wrote: This shot shows the true color a little better. The color is really nice, it varies due to the angle and the light:
Image
sweat!  :? :?

User avatar
JazzBlaster
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 9474
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 1:34 pm
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: "PROJECT '65" Update! Pics!

Post by JazzBlaster » Sat May 12, 2007 1:11 pm

Pontiac engine paint eh? very nice! did I mention Blue is my favorite color?  :-*
It's not about the gear! It's about you, your hands, your imagination, your feelings.

Post Reply