Offsets for jazz

Discussion of newer designs, copies and reissue offset-waist instruments.
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bessieboporbach
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Offsets for jazz

Post by bessieboporbach » Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:11 am

(sorry if this is the wrong subforum)

As I read through the threads here, it seems like the vast majority of posters use their offsets for what might be called "indie" or "alternative" rock applications of one kind or another. The usual lineage of post-surf offset icons -- Verlaine, Marr, Mascis, Cobain, etc. -- seem to underpin most of the music made by members here. There is also a small but significant surf contingent.

I'm just curious if anyone else here uses their offsets to primarily play jazz, either at home or "out." And, if so, what your setup is.

That's where I am. Although I was exposed to offsets through surf, Television, Spacemen 3, and the like, nowadays I mostly play jazz (not very well, mind you). My main everyday guitar currently is a Vintera Jag. I love offsets mainly for ergonomic reasons. I like how Jazzmasters and Jaguars sit against me, how they push the first position further out and sort of re-center the fretboard around the 9th or 10th fret. I don't use the vibrato much, just a mild warble at phrase endings.

For the Vintera Jag, I find the rhythm circuit a perfectly adequate "set it and forget it" option for a basic jazz tone. When I engage it, the tone is already mostly where I want it, and I can back off the tone knob to taste if needed, depending on whether I'm playing with picks or fingerstyle. It's kind of fun to be using this feature "as it was intended."

Anybody else have similar habits or insights? I'm aware that various jazz players over the years have used offsets in this way -- Joe Pass famously made early recordings on a borrowed Jaguar from Synanon, and more recently Marc Ribot has played a lot of old offsets. But it still seems to be a niche proposition. "Straight-ahead" jazz guitarists still tend to favor hollow-bodied instruments, and those that play solid-bodied ones seem to be attracted to Telecasters more than other shapes.

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Ceylon
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Re: Offsets for jazz

Post by Ceylon » Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:02 pm

I'm not good enough to play jazz, but I've gotten really sweet jazz tones out of Jaguars and Jazzmasters both
Science Friction burns my fingers
Electricity still lingers

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mcbrandt
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Re: Offsets for jazz

Post by mcbrandt » Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:31 pm

There are a few members of this forum that play jazz, I've watched a few of their videos. I'm probably in the same boat as you to a degree, I use a jazzmaster and play "jazz", though I don't think if anyone else heard it they'd call it that. Maybe it's more about the mellow tone than anything, and playing lot of 7th chords. I've disconnected the rhythm circuit, because I really couldn't hear any difference when switching it on or off and it never really worked as it was supposed to. Leo got it right in that it is the most comfortable guitar to play sitting down.

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Re: Offsets for jazz

Post by bessieboporbach » Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:24 pm

mcbrandt wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:31 pm
There are a few members of this forum that play jazz, I've watched a few of their videos. I'm probably in the same boat as you to a degree, I use a jazzmaster and play "jazz", though I don't think if anyone else heard it they'd call it that. Maybe it's more about the mellow tone than anything, and playing lot of 7th chords. I've disconnected the rhythm circuit, because I really couldn't hear any difference when switching it on or off and it never really worked as it was supposed to. Leo got it right in that it is the most comfortable guitar to play sitting down.
I have a Classic Vibe Jazzmaster and on that one the rhythm circuit is pretty much identical to the neck pickup on the lead circuit with the tone knob at about 6. Admittedly when I was using this Jazzmaster as my "everyday" guitar I very seldom used the rhythm circuit. But on the Vintera Jag it's my go-to.

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Re: Offsets for jazz

Post by ainm » Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:06 am

I definitely fall into the alternative music camp and for the longest time simply ignored the rhythm circuit and, mostly, isolated neck pickups. But I've recently been stumbling across YouTube videos of others who use Fender rhythm circuits to play what, to my ears, sounds like jazz.

I'm not a jazz fan, but I like the tones I hear in those videos and have started experimenting with the rhythm circuits on my Jags and Jazzmasters and darkness on the neck pickups of my Mustangs/Duo-Sonic. I call it darkness because I play a lot of distorted rhythm and that's the label that makes sense to me, but 'sweet tones' may be a better descriptor of what I'm shooting for. It's given me a new dimension to my playing/tonal range, although I find I use it more for lead work than rhythm. I'm assuming that isn't the intention given the name of the circuit, but I'm enjoying the less agressive, smoother and more relaxed sound it can achieve on lead parts.

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Re: Offsets for jazz

Post by ZiggyZipgun » Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:10 am

I recently got a Squier Jaguar specifically for all-5ths tuning, from A¹ up to G#⁴, .080 to .008. Most of my other guitars are Godins, including a chambered Core CT with Dimarzio PAF Masters that can really nail the sound of a jazz box - I ultimately chose it over the Montreal Premiere P90 that I'd had for some time.

The Jaguar's stock pickups are perfectly adequate for dialing in a clear, dark tone - I like them much more than I anticipated. I've used Antiquity I Jazzmaster pickups in Strats and Teles, but I've never owned an offset until now (not counting the squier Bass VI that I bought earlier this year, since it was quickly replaced by the Jaguar) - I chose JMs because that what was used in the early Fender pedal steels. I've been listening to a lot of jazz, but not necessarily jazz guitar - some Julian Lage, but a lot of Oded Tzur, Anouar Brahem, Mathias Eick, and John Surman. Not only does this tuning get me away from my usual riffs and patterns, it really seems to bring out saxophone riffs and patterns. Either the saxophone has fewer limitations in terms of fingering and reach, or a quarter century of playing blues-based rock has severely limited my chops. Perhaps both!

With that said, I had a Dimarzio Air Norton and an Air Zone lying around and installed them the other day. I'm very pleased with initial results, but I'm still tinkering behind the switch panel trying coil-splits and parallel wiring. I now have the rhythm circuit completely disconnected, but its tone control was much more useful than the main tone, which cut the overall output quite a bit.

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Re: Offsets for jazz

Post by Britfingersisback » Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:42 am

There is a superb video on youtube of the great Joe Pass playing a Jaguar.

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bessieboporbach
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Re: Offsets for jazz

Post by bessieboporbach » Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:03 pm

Britfingersisback wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:42 am
There is a superb video on youtube of the great Joe Pass playing a Jaguar.
Yeah I mentioned that in my OP. It was the house guitar of Synanon which he had borrowed. He apparently really hated it!

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Re: Offsets for jazz

Post by Zeus » Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:05 pm

Great jazz tone on a Jaguar here, I go back and watch this regularly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiRxXage6Wg

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Re: Offsets for jazz

Post by marqueemoon » Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:26 pm

Another aging indie rock kid here, but yeah Joe Pass is fucking great.

Another favorite of mine is Bill Frisell who has played a few offsets over the years.

I played a JM with some improvisers for a few years doing John Zorn’s Cobra and other game-based music, but I am VERY far from being a jazz player. I use the neck pickup a lot more these days, but yeah…

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Re: Offsets for jazz

Post by DrQuasar » Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:54 pm

I think a jazzmaster works for jazz as well as any other solid body guitar, better than some in fact. If I were going to record some solo jazz or play out on a solid body guitar though, I would honestly probably reach for my telecaster. Maybe not, but probably.

Jazz guitarists are an interesting bunch from my observations. In some respects, they're even more traditional than even rock players where the 335 is even still too new and not hollow enough to be seriously considered a "jazz" instrument. At the other end of the spectrum you have a lot of jazz players that were early adopters all the "weirdest" stuff--headless guitars, synth-guitars, midi-equipped, multi-scale, 7 strings, weird shapes, chapman sticks, active pickups, solid state amps, that kind of thing.

If you show up to a big band audition with a jazzmaster you'd have some convincing to do to prove you knew what you were doing.

There aren't really rules, it's just what's expected in different contexts. It's like if I showed up to an indie show with a big ole jazz box wearing a tuxedo. You'd kind of stick out. Now I'm wishing I'd been more confident in my youth!

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Re: Offsets for jazz

Post by bessieboporbach » Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:24 pm

DrQuasar wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:54 pm
Jazz guitarists are an interesting bunch from my observations. In some respects, they're even more traditional than even rock players where the 335 is even still too new and not hollow enough to be seriously considered a "jazz" instrument. At the other end of the spectrum you have a lot of jazz players that were early adopters all the "weirdest" stuff--headless guitars, synth-guitars, midi-equipped, multi-scale, 7 strings, weird shapes, chapman sticks, active pickups, solid state amps, that kind of thing.

If you show up to a big band audition with a jazzmaster you'd have some convincing to do to prove you knew what you were doing.
This is changing, and not even slowly. Partly the reason is that hobbyists gobbled up even the crummy old archtops (Kays, Harmonys, Silvertones, etc.) and now they are no longer easily available. I'm not sure if the Epiphone Joe Pass ES-175 is still in production, but if it is, that means that a grand total of about three sub-$1000 full-size archtops exist to cater to the students studying jazz in school. (The others being the Ibanez Artcore which many of the gigging young people seem to favor, and the Godin Kingpin.)

Consequently the scene -- at least in my city -- is getting much less fussy about what instruments people show up with. There are a lot of young people playing jazz, and they are mostly doing it on Strats and Teles and objects of those general shapes.

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Re: Offsets for jazz

Post by Beltone » Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:34 pm

I thought the 60th anniversary ‘58 JM had great jazz tones in the videos, but I ended up buying two keeper guitars and an amp for what it cost.

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Re: Offsets for jazz

Post by pawnzito » Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:21 am

I play jazz here and there, studied jazz guitar for a couple years and do jams once in awhile now.
My favorite setup is my blacktop jm with a av 62 pickup in the neck, 500k pots, going into my Princeton with a hemp cone speaker. I used to use a telecaster with humbucker in the neck but far prefer the bt jm now. No one has ever complained about eithers tone.

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Re: Offsets for jazz

Post by windmill » Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:07 am

I'm currently working my way through "Mickey Baker's Jazz Guitar" book and I often use a jag.

HTH

:)

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