Anyone else order a Staytrem lately?

[MrSparkle]

Not sure I understand the angst or principles about not using threadlocking compounds. Literally what they are designed to do and are preventing many of the things you use regularly from vibrating loose/self-dismantling.

I'll bite. This probably happens on every guitar with adjustable string height even the greatest ones - Original 54 Strat, 59 Jazzmaster, 62 Jaguar and '99 Daisy Rock Stardust Elite. But the only reason it happens at any appreciably noticeable rate on a Classic Vibe Jaguar is because of very poor tolerances of bridge manufacture. It's a good design, but because of the price point, it's an "only just" works.

I have to admit, I'm not really mad about it in and of itself; because this is what I want - I want Squiers to ship with crummy cheap hardware that can be drop-in replaced to high end parts because that's a big part of how we get great guitars affordably (and yes, I recognise that wage disparity is also a huge factor there).

But the TL;DR is - I don't like bodging stuff if there's another way. I'd rather have a Staytrem Tremolo than the "hammer trick", I'd rather have a high end bridge (like... the Staytrem ones) than "above-averageglue" or whatever joking epithet I'm allowed to give it, and I'd rather have a rebuilt differential than shove some heavy oil in it and hope it shuts up. (I.E. This is not just a guitar thing).

So; rather than just bodge it again every time I need to adjust something, I got a part that isn't badly made. Problem solved once and for all.

[distressed]

I'm not in any rush, so for now I'm going to hold out for a Staytrem. But this is good to know in case the Staytrem guy suddenly calls it quits or something, so thanks!

I'm assuming this bridge doesn't sink on its posts like the one that comes with the Squiers?

I have one on my JM and it doesn't sink at all. No rattling from saddles also. There are minor construction differences (it has springs, and brass saddles) but otherwise very solid bridge, and very comparable to Staytrem. No problems at all with my unit.

[superficial]

Because one shouldn't have to use threadlocking compounds to keep a bridge on a brand new guitar

There are plenty of components on my mountain and road bikes that require threadlock for their correct functioning. It’s perfectly reasonable to design a component to require it and I don’t see it as an inherent flaw. Of course, if threadlock is required, the guitar should be sold with it in place. But I’d argue the threadlock per se is not the issue.

[Pavol Stromcek]

Because one shouldn't have to use threadlocking compounds to keep a bridge on a brand new guitar

There are plenty of components on my mountain and road bikes that require threadlock for their correct functioning. It’s perfectly reasonable to design a component to require it and I don’t see it as an inherent flaw. Of course, if threadlock is required, the guitar should be sold with it in place. But I’d argue the threadlock per se is not the issue.

Speaking as a longtime road cyclist myself, I have never had a road bike that required me to apply threadlock. Perhaps there were some parts that came with it already applied, but I agree that if a component does require it, it should come off the factory floor with it already applied.

Of course, one can't do that with a guitar bridge that needs to be adjusted to personal preference, but as I said earlier, there's zero excuse for companies to sell brand new guitars with bridges that require threadlocker to prevent them from sinking as you're playing, especially when there are versions that exist that don't require it. That is a major flaw that directly impacts the instrument's playability; not a minor buzz or rattle.

[javier-san]

Wow, people have strong feelings about "threadlocker"

I wouldn't say that using a set screw is a flawed design, but I agree having "blue" loctite installed from the factory wouldn't be a bad idea. Given the tolerances of the major and minor diameter of the threads might make for a "looser" fit than wanted.

Given that it is a set screw that is being used and there is no compression force (for a lack of finding a better word rn) to keep the screw in place, blue loctite, a circlip, nylon bushing (like staytrem), or another set screw on top (like Tuffset) would be a good idea to not have cyclical vibrations slowly "loosen" the height adjustment set screws.

I am also a longtime cyclist (road, cx and mtn) and I have had plenty of things I would apply (light amount of) blue loctite to. Sometimes grease isn't enough.

[Pavol Stromcek]

Wow, people have strong feelings about "threadlocker"

I wouldn't say that using a set screw is a flawed design, but I agree having "blue" loctite installed from the factory wouldn't be a bad idea. Given the tolerances of the major and minor diameter of the threads might make for a "looser" fit than wanted.

Given that it is a set screw that is being used and there is no compression force (for a lack of finding a better word rn) to keep the screw in place, blue loctite, a circlip, nylon bushing (like staytrem), or another set screw on top (like Tuffset) would be a good idea to not have cyclical vibrations slowly "loosen" the height adjustment set screws.

I am also a longtime cyclist (road, cx and mtn) and I have had plenty of things I would apply (light amount of) blue loctite to. Sometimes grease isn't enough.

Funny, I'm not seeing that at all!

I'm only seeing a few people (myself included) kind of annoyed by a bridge that sinks when playing the guitar that it's on, and by the fact that the issue could be easily resolved if the bridge came with the nylon bushings to keep it in place, like the Staytrem.

So, the issue is ultimately not the thread locker (which is good stuff when you need it—it works!); it's the bridge that comes straight off the factory floor with a flaw (i.e., nothing to keep it from sinking, looser tolerances), and the fact that it's left to the consumer to deal with it.

I also don't think anyone's calling the style of bridge a "flawed design"; I merely referred to the stock Squier Mustang-style bridge as having a "flaw" that directly impacts the play-ability and function of the instrument much more than a rattle or buzz.

We can all expect certain corners to be cut with the manufacturing of Squiers to keep the price so low, but this is one corner that I think shouldn't be cut because there's such an obvious solution to it which shouldn't have a massive impact on the overall cost.

[javier-san]

I am coming from the perspective of a machinist. Tightening the tolerances and manufacturing another component to "fix" what a simple threadlocker could do is not cost effective. It would involve investing more time/money into tooling, set-up and QC for a product that Fender sees as entry-level.

[Pavol Stromcek]

I am coming from the perspective of a machinist. Tightening the tolerances and manufacturing another component to "fix" what a simple threadlocker could do is not cost effective. It would involve investing more time/money into tooling, set-up and QC for a product that Fender sees as entry-level.

I honestly thought this went without saying on a guitar forum, but a bridge that sinks when played does not meet the basic standard of functionality. It actually offers a serious impediment to the playability of the instrument if not addressed. When the bridge sinks, at a certain point the notes around the 12th fret and up become dead and no longer ring out, effectively rendering the guitar unplayable. I just don't think a musical instrument should go out the factory door that doesn't meet this basic standard of function or playability.

(By the way, I fully knew what I was getting into with this Squier Jag, and expected to have to address the bridge, but that doesn't mean I enjoyed doing it!)

I don't know how much it would cost to produce and install nylon bushings for the bridge posts, but I doubt it would push the Squier out of its budget price range and entry-level category. I suspect many people would be willing to pay a little more if they knew this issue was addressed at the factory.

At any rate, I'm done arguing this point. I was just taking a peek at this thread to see if there was any info about when orders for Staytrem bridges might resume, and not to bicker with folks who think it's fine to produce a bridge that is effectively unusable until one applies threadlocker to it.

[superficial]

I just don't think a musical instrument should go out the factory door that doesn't meet this basic standard of function or playability.

I don't think anyone is arguing against that, dude! I completely agree FWIW.

Buuuut, if the bridge doesn't ship with thread lock, the solution to the problem is to put a tiny drop of the stuff on the threads. It's not some wild hack.

Also NB there are different thread locking compounds. ones that 'lock' a screw into position (and will break free when the screw is turned) and others that just provide some extra resistance to turning and will eliminate the issue with vibrations buzzing the bridge down. Thread 'lock' is often a misnomer.

I have no idea know when Staytrem will resume shipping. I doubt anyone does but the man himself.

[alexpigment]

I have no idea know when Staytrem will resume shipping. I doubt anyone does but the man himself.

I suspect his turnaround time is just slipping for various reasons, and once that turnaround gets to greater than a 6 weeks or so, then he's got a mountain of emails from (rightfully) anxious customers to deal with, which then causes the turnaround time to slip more. I suspect he'll probably resume when his remaining open orders are less than a week's worth of work. On the other hand, this is all assuming that he wants to continue working a full day of work each day of the week, which is not a given.

[andy_tchp]

and I'd rather have a rebuilt differential than shove some heavy oil in it and hope it shuts up. (I.E. This is not just a guitar thing).

You'd assuredly be much happier with Loctite applied to the ring gear bolts inside that differential than without

(And brake caliper/flywheel/flexplate bolts...) Hardly a 'bodge'.

I am coming from the perspective of a machinist. Tightening the tolerances and manufacturing another component to "fix" what a simple threadlocker could do is not cost effective. It would involve investing more time/money into tooling, set-up and QC for a product that Fender sees as entry-level.

Only Woody at Mastery Bridge has actually bothered to do this to my knowledge (producing their own fasteners). Older Mastery Bridges sometimes needed Loctite too.

I wouldn't say that using a set screw is a flawed design, but I agree having "blue" loctite installed from the factory wouldn't be a bad idea. Given the tolerances of the major and minor diameter of the threads might make for a "looser" fit than wanted.

Agreed. A tiny dab of low-strength (purple) during initial assembly would probably make this issue go away.

(Though this could also come under my bugbear of retailers not bothering to do even a cursory setup on guitars they're selling)

Maybe I'm misremembering but didn't AV65 bridges have some kind of thread sealant on the two overall height adjustment grub screws from the factory?

Buuuut, if the bridge doesn't ship with thread lock, the solution to the problem is to put a tiny drop of the stuff on the threads. It's not some wild hack.

Well yeah. If you're adjusting the fasteners as part of the setup anyway, what's the big deal?

[javier-san]

I am coming from the perspective of a machinist. Tightening the tolerances and manufacturing another component to "fix" what a simple threadlocker could do is not cost effective. It would involve investing more time/money into tooling, set-up and QC for a product that Fender sees as entry-level.

I honestly thought this went without saying on a guitar forum, but a bridge that sinks when played does not meet the basic standard of functionality. It actually offers a serious impediment to the playability of the instrument if not addressed. When the bridge sinks, at a certain point the notes around the 12th fret and up become dead and no longer ring out, effectively rendering the guitar unplayable. I just don't think a musical instrument should go out the factory door that doesn't meet this basic standard of function or playability.

(By the way, I fully knew what I was getting into with this Squier Jag, and expected to have to address the bridge, but that doesn't mean I enjoyed doing it!)

I don't know how much it would cost to produce and install nylon bushings for the bridge posts, but I doubt it would push the Squier out of its budget price range and entry-level category. I suspect many people would be willing to pay a little more if they knew this issue was addressed at the factory.

At any rate, I'm done arguing this point. I was just taking a peek at this thread to see if there was any info about when orders for Staytrem bridges might resume, and not to bicker with folks who think it's fine to produce a bridge that is effectively unusable until one applies threadlocker to it.

I feel I explained fairly well what the limitations would be for Fender/Squier to "fix" the "serious impediment" to the play ability of the bridge. Coming from a manufacturing background, it is never that simple to just "do that one thing that is super fast and easy and cheap" when it involves making new blueprints, assigning new tolerances and tooling/setting up the CNC machines for those changes.

It wouldn't make sense for Fender/Squier to do that when threadlocker will help fix the issue.
(and yes, they should put it on for the customer.)


I could get into the complexity of threads and talk about root, min and max diameter, pitch, etc, but a quick drop of threadlocker will fix the serious impediment and honestly threadlocker (or grease, for less important threads) is not a bad idea for all threads that are seeing cyclical vibrations. Doesn't matter how good the tolerances are, vibrations (depending on the severity) will loosen most threads (UNC/UNF etc).

[Gordon]

As it seems the thread is drifting away from its original point, allow me to put it back on course: got my bridge today!

[MrSparkle]

As it seems the thread is drifting away from its original point, allow me to put it back on course: got my bridge today!

PICS OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!

[javier-san]

As it seems the thread is drifting away from its original point, allow me to put it back on course: got my bridge today!

PICS OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!

+1