Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Discussion of newer designs, copies and reissue offset-waist instruments.
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Larry Mal
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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larry Mal » Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:03 am

seenoevil II wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:15 am
That's why there are so many stories of Yamahas being used for recording as they have so few resonant overtones.
A couple other quick things- acoustics just aren't strong live, and that's that. There really aren't any good pickups for them that sound anything like an acoustic, and putting a microphone on them live introduces a lot of problems. At least not flat tops.

It's like when they played those acoustic basses in the 90s, those things were super lame, because they had all the liabilities of an acoustic instrument and none of the strengths of an electric one. Just play the electric bass guitar. That's what it's for. I feel pretty much the same with the acoustic guitar. It's great to record with, though.

And sure, it can be hard to slot the acoustic in to busy mixes. That's kind of more the fault of the production to me than the instrument itself, though, and the fact that it can be made to record well as a solo instrument as well as be flattened into supporting a busy mix with a lot of other instruments and vocals I think kind of speaks to the versatility of the thing.

I know I keep beating this to shit, but Gibsons record very well. They have a dry sound that always turned me off in the music store, which is also why I don't really think all that much of "running the racks". They are quieter than other guitars and can often have less sustain and all- there's a big variety, but overall Gibsons kind of have a dry sound.

This can seem underwhelming next to a big Martin dread in the store, but once you get a nice microphone in front of one, you realize that it was a strength all along. Took me a long time to learn that.
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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larsongs » Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:17 am

I agree with much of what Mal says. But, respectfully, disagree about Martins entry point for true Professional Grade.. It has always been the D-28. For at least the last 50 years or more. If you don't believe it look at what the great Players play. The rest is marketing to get you in the house so you'll upgrade later... Like they do with Cars.

There are at least 100,000, or more, guys who have truly outstanding D-28's of the past 50+ years that are not re-imagined & would completely disagree as to re-imagined's being superior.. Completely Subjective. An Opinion not based on the real numbers of what the great Players over the past half Century have played & still play....

A D-18 is nothing like a D-28.. It's a little misleading to categorize it as a traditional D-28 style Guitar. It's more like a J-45 than it is a D-28.. Spruce & Mahogany. Not Spruce & Rosewood. Totally different Sound. More like a J-45. If you want a J-45, get a J-45!

Having owned & played the upgraded D-35 & the upgraded J-160E for years I know the difference.. I've played all the higher line Martins & Gibsons over the years. I played all the new Martins at Winter NAMM 2019. Including the re-imagined which are quite good. That said, the D-18's don't have the quality of Sound of a D-28. Never did & still don't IMO..

If you seriously want to buy it once & buy it right you'll buy a D-28. Then later if you want to do it twice, add a J-45....

All your thinking Martin's this or Gibsons that negative narrative is unfounded & sounds more like sour Grapes...

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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larry Mal » Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:35 am

Larsongs wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:17 am

A D-18 is nothing like a D-28.. It's a little misleading to categorize it as a traditional D-28 style Guitar. It's more like a J-45 than it is a D-28.. Spruce & Mahogany. Not Spruce & Rosewood. Totally different Sound. More like a J-45. If you want a J-45, get a J-45!

Having owned & played the upgraded D-35 & the upgraded J-160E for years I know the difference.. I've played all the higher line Martins & Gibsons over the years. I played all the new Martins at Winter NAMM 2019. Including the re-imagined which are quite good. That said, the D-18's don't have the quality of Sound of a D-28. Never did & still don't IMO..

If you seriously want to buy it once & buy it right you'll buy a D-28. Then later if you want to do it twice, add a J-45....
Well, it's not just me- look at Martin's site and how they organize their products, they break thing apart into various groups but the "Standard Series" includes the D-18 up to the D-45 or so. So in Martin's way of thinking, that's the deal.

The part about buying a re-imagined is my opinion. I had a 000-18, and found it lackluster. I would buy another if it had lighter and scalloped bracing. Other people like the straight bracing.

Regarding the D-18 and the D-28, it's the same guitar with the exception of rosewood or mahogany back and sides and maybe a couple cosmetic differences I forget. This is a pretty subjective area with neither of them being "better" than the other. Rosewood certainly has more overtones and can carry more bass and slightly more treble, as we've discussed, though, a lot of times less is more with acoustic guitars. The D-18 is hardly a stranger to being recorded over its 90 year history.

Not sure how you would say the D-18 was more like a J-45? The body shape is different, the bracing can be different, the scale length is different not to mention the inherent Martin vs. Gibson sound.

I guess that's subjective also, but the D-18 is a legend and rightfully so, it is in so sense second fiddle to the D-28. The only difference is whether or not one prefers the mahogany or rosewood voicing, and there's no wrong answer there.
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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by seenoevil II » Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:26 am

I'm starting to wax philosophic, so if you want to bag out. I'm just putting these thoughts out into the record.

I think we're getting into the land of culture and away from the "objective" or the strictly practical. That or you two are actually competing sales reps from Martin and Gibson and the winner pays for dinner.

We can debate the relative merits of different tonewoods, but if rosewood is so great, then why aren't violins and cellos made with it? Because it's a new world wood that wasn't available at the time the designs for those instruments were being codified. The same inertia of convention is at work here I think.

All this talk of where the line deliniating the professional instruments from the amateur. I'm not sure if I buy it. How many blues men played catalog guitars made by small outfits of Italian immigrants? While it's still up for debate, the two frontrunners for what guitar Nick Drake played are a sanded down Yamaha or a Swedish Levin dreadnought. Over a long enough time scale, these destinctions mean less and less as the real-life application becomes more important. Hell, in 400 years, how could it not be said that the acoustic guitar was primarily an Asian instrument made of laminate with a cutaway and built in preamp.

I too will "get in the zone" except with my Yammy. That's why I'm so fond of it. It's given me so much pleasure and been the desk upon which I've learned and created so much. To me, it's a prince. Not to mention it's brought me more income than any other guitar I own. Infact, over the years, I could probably buy a d28 with the cash I've earned with it. As the house guitar at the open mic I hosted, it was played by countless people. Most of my friends are pictured with it. 13 years of honest wear and breaking in. In eyes, it's a relic. I'm a little ashamed to admit that what I'm concerned about to a degree is how it's seen by others eyes.

However, I have played all solid, well made guitars before, and it's not hype, they do sound and play fantastic.

Anyway, I think I've bought a ticket to burnoutville. So, I'm gonna take a break I think.
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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larsongs » Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:13 pm

I'm not a Sales Rep for Martin or Gibson.. I am an owner & proponent of several of both..

If you look at the Specs of the D-18 it is built of the same Woods as a J-45 than a Martin D-28.. Regardles of Shape or Braces.. It is a quite good Guitar but it doesn't sound like a D-28.. The Guitar everyone, including Yamaha, copies...

Robert Johnson, Muddy Waters & other early Blues Guys played what they could afford.. They had a Sound.. It wasn't a great Sound. those Recordings sound pretty bad.. But, because the Music was so good, as were the performances, they've become immortal.. Not for the Guitars though. For the Artists, their Groove & the Songs..

There is nothing wrong with playing on what you can afford.. LIke I said, earlier, I have a $399.00 Epiphone Texan that plays good, looks good & sounds good.. If that's all I could afford I'd be happy as a Clam at High Tide to have it...

Just make the most of what you can afford & play your best.. Ultimately, what else is there??

It does seem like this Thread has become an exercise in futility.. Hope theirs no hard feelings.. Best of luck

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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larry Mal » Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:35 pm

Huh. I had thought it was an enjoyable thread. Sorry to have irritated everyone. I'll be happy to do other things with my time, then.
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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by seenoevil II » Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:43 pm

Larry Mal wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:35 pm
Huh. I had thought it was an enjoyable thread. Sorry to have irritated everyone. I'll be happy to do other things with my time, then.
No no. You misunderstand. I've very much enjoyed this thread and your input. I mean I'm becoming burned out at the shopping process.
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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by seenoevil II » Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:59 pm

I think some attempts at humor may have come off a lot more pointed than I intended. This has been a great crash course.
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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larry Mal » Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:04 pm

Sure. I know I'm rambling and all.

So, I mean, why don't you talk about what you are looking for? What kind of sound do you have in your head? How do you plan to play it? What is important?

What guitarists do you like, and what songs with acoustic guitar on them are you inspired by?

And then I'll ignore all that and tell you to buy a Gibson of some kind!
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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larsongs » Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:13 pm

Larry Mal wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:35 pm
Huh. I had thought it was an enjoyable thread. Sorry to have irritated everyone. I'll be happy to do other things with my time, then.
I also thought a lot of valuable information about quality Acoustic Guitars was shared on this Thread. I hope I didn't irritate anyone.. I wasn't irritated..

I hope the OP wasn't too overwhelmed, became more informed & uses the information to help him in his buying Decision.

I totally agre about buying it once & buying it right..

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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by barryd » Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:00 pm

Thanks all for the thread - it was very valuable and good to see such passion for the big brands (seeing as electricland just seems too bash the big brands!) - made google Gibsons and Martin's a lot even though i don't have the coins to buy one now! But i have never played a Gibson acoustic and would love to get my hands on a J-45 though i'll likely only ever get near a J-15... if I'm lucky! Secondhand market isn't great here but an option too..

Seenoevil - interesting that you mention Nick Drake - he wrote a lot of his songs on a Yamaha Classical guitar - is always associated with the Guild M20 he is holding on the cover of Bryter Layter and somewhere i read that the last few recordings he made (Black eyed dog etc.) were apparently done with his new prized....D28! Who know's how that sound would have developed if he hadn't died.

Davey Graham played a Martin OM then went to a house party in London and walked out the next morning with a J-45 and can't remember how...he finished his career playing a Spanish Flamenco guitar I think partly due to joint issues. flamenco guitars are spruce or cedar tops with cyrpess wood sides that were "cheaper" to make and all that the spanish gypsies could afford compared to traditional rosewood - they now have become the signature sound of flamenco and Ramirez or Condes in Madrid will charge you 6k for one!

Bert Jansch recorded his first album in a friend's kitchen on his friend's guitar - think it was a j-45 but swore by Yamaha later in life...

good luck with your hunt - i feel your pain of the marketing confusion and it plays at your ego as well as your wallet! Should i buy it cos it's the best or most expensive I can? - will it make me better? am i just going to be worried about damaging it/ getting stolen - afraid to play it? one part of the internet says it's crap, the other says it's amazing? a "new" version is released just as you buy the previous...

i think i will try buy a "top" level acoustic at some stage - i have a semi-pro to pro level flamenco guitar (not a ramirez) after having intermediate level versions and I don't look back - I sold the others. For me less is more so I can try and play more and not wonder what i should be playing!

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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by seenoevil II » Wed May 06, 2020 3:41 pm

I'll put another question to the wind:

Has anyone dealt with the Godin family of brands? Seagull, Norman, Simon and Patrick, Art and Luthiery?

Specifically, they all seem to have higher end models that sport all solid wood construction in a range of body styles.

Canadian made (all Quebec I think), so no slimy labor practices. And all deeply affordable compared to American makers.

I like Godin in general because they don't seem beholden to legacy and tradition and will actually innovate a bit.

I've played some of their cheaper models and they all seemed abely built and fun. The only exception was a very low end all laminate model (still Canadian).

Anyone have experience with these brands' higher end offerings? It gets a little confusing as they are all under the Godin umbrella (as evidenced by identical body shapes), but they all have different model and series names (et tout est en francais).

There are some all solid examples on reverb sub $500
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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larry Mal » Wed May 06, 2020 5:16 pm

I have owned two lower level Seagull guitars back in the day. Both were OK, if I had been able to set a guitar up in those days I would probably still have them now. They were not all solid wood guitars.

Probably any all solid wood instrument made by a good manufacturer will sound good and be a good guitar.
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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larsongs » Wed May 06, 2020 9:39 pm

The Godins were ok. Not overly impressive.. There are lots of lower priced Guitars.. I've played tons of them.. They're mostly ok. A few even a little better than ok... None equal to Martin D-28's or Gibson J-45's... There some Sigma's that are quite good.. Sigma's are Japanese Martin's.. Not sure they're still in production.. A friend of mine has a couple that blindfolded it would be hard to tell it's not a Martin... Used they're somewhere in the $800-$1000 range I think...

One of the best sounding, looking & playing sub $500.00 Acoustic Guitars is the Epiphone Inspired by Texan... The Electronics could be better.. But, at $399.00 the Electronics are as good as one would expect... The Guitar is quite good.. IMO.. Definitely needs a good Set of new Strings as soon as you buy!

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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by barryd » Thu May 07, 2020 1:09 am

seenoevil II wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 3:41 pm
I'll put another question to the wind:

Has anyone dealt with the Godin family of brands? Seagull, Norman, Simon and Patrick, Art and Luthiery?

Specifically, they all seem to have higher end models that sport all solid wood construction in a range of body styles.

Canadian made (all Quebec I think), so no slimy labor practices. And all deeply affordable compared to American makers.

I like Godin in general because they don't seem beholden to legacy and tradition and will actually innovate a bit.

I've played some of their cheaper models and they all seemed abely built and fun. The only exception was a very low end all laminate model (still Canadian).

Anyone have experience with these brands' higher end offerings? It gets a little confusing as they are all under the Godin umbrella (as evidenced by identical body shapes), but they all have different model and series names (et tout est en francais).

There are some all solid examples on reverb sub $500
I've owned a Seagull Grand (parlour size original series) since 2001 and it's great - solid cedar top pressed laminate wild cherry back and sides. the satin finish really lets the guitar breathe but also dings up the top! I also had my hands on an art and Lutherie Ami Parlour with solid spruce top. both guitars finish were excellent and sound great - parlour has a particualar focused sound so can't speak for dreads or concert models. For their price they are excellent and a great for not worrying about and just playing live or whatever. i did replace the saddle with a bone one and think now after nearly 20 years it could do with some attention but it's minor stuff. I wouldn't imagine they have high re-sale value so buy one cos you absolutely love it or cos you will run it into the ground.

that said while the top has matured over time - i'd have to compare it with a new model and expect it hasn't opened out or matured as much as an all solid wood guitar. Because I find them a good fit I have mused over upgrading to an all solid wood godin model such as a Simon and Patrick but haven't done this yet so don't know how they mature - i imagine like the seagulls they will sound good straight out of the box but after that? I haven't played an all solid body as their distribution here in Ireland just disappeared a few years ago...

I do respect their ethos and interest in using sustainable woods - also their innovation (multitac series) and modern methods. They've even entered the archtop market with the 5th avenue series of affordable jazz boxes etc so they're not afraid to experiment! I'm no jazzer but really tempted to get the 5th Av as a quiet archtop acoustic that can plug in to drive it's P90....

sorry to ramble but i think if you buy a godin brand then that's what you get - it will not sound or feel like a Martin or a Gibson - nothing wrong with that - Taylor are happy to sound like Taylor - it's what you're happy with in the end. I think Larsong said it before - buy the best you can afford (and that might mean biding your time to build up the funds) but if it's not at the J-45 or D-28 range guitar then to me an all solid wood Godin is a higher spec than a HPL or Road series Martin and if Larry reckons it's not until 18 series that Martin lift off you can still get a great solid wood guitar (canadian or otherwise) for a price you can afford that isn't one of the big names.

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