General opinions on high-end JM clones?

[Larsongs]

I wonder, In the years since Napster, MP3's, Digital SS Amps & Recording Produced Music.. Generations of Ears have been conditioned to think what they're hearing on their Computers & earbuds is the ultimate in Sound..

Maybe because of that they've moved on to some other Brand Guitars & all the digital Amps & FX because to them they sound better than the Traditional Fenders, Gibsons & Gretsch Guitars & Tube Amps....

I know I'm a Dinosaur.. I still want the Traditional Guitars & Tube Amps... I was conditioned in the Analog Age of High Fidelity...

[mackerelmint]

I wonder, In the years since Napster, MP3's, Digital SS Amps & Recording Produced Music.. Generations of Ears have been conditioned to think what they're hearing on their Computers & earbuds is the ultimate in Sound..

Maybe because of that they've moved on to some other Brand Guitars & all the digital Amps & FX because to them they sound better than the Traditional Fenders, Gibsons & Gretsch Guitars & Tube Amps....

I'm quite sure there's something to this.

[Embenny]

I wonder, In the years since Napster, MP3's, Digital SS Amps & Recording Produced Music.. Generations of Ears have been conditioned to think what they're hearing on their Computers & earbuds is the ultimate in Sound..

Maybe because of that they've moved on to some other Brand Guitars & all the digital Amps & FX because to them they sound better than the Traditional Fenders, Gibsons & Gretsch Guitars & Tube Amps....

I know I'm a Dinosaur.. I still want the Traditional Guitars & Tube Amps... I was conditioned in the Analog Age of High Fidelity...

I'm not getting your argument here. Are you saying that you're basing your idea of tone on live shows with a lot of stage volume from a backline?

Because, if your ears were conditioned by recordings in the "analog age of high fidelity", you were still listening to guitar amps going into a mic and being played back. That is the fundamental difference between digital modelers and tube amps. Tube amps produce a different tone and experience for the listener in the room. Digital modelers produce the tone of an amp that has been close mic'd and is being played back on a reference speaker.

Depending on the point in time and the size of the venue, the guitar tone at a live show might have been coming directly from an amp, it might have been mostly a mic'd tone played over a PA system, or a combination of the two.

At every point in time though, recorded tones were the latter. People fail blind tests trying to identify tube amps compared to modern modelers when listening to recordings or even when playing live but being isolated from the physical amp (i.e. sitting in a control room and A/Bing a modeler and a tube amp that's mic'd up in an isolated room).

You can run a modeler through a power amp into a guitar cab with speaker sims turned off for the "amp in the room" tone and some people do. The main gripe tube amp fans have about those modelers has to do with that fundamental difference - guitar tone "in the room" vs "close mic'd and played back", and once you mic up their tube amp or put the modeler "into the room" the perceptible difference disappears.

I'm failing to understand, though, how computers or digital recording would inherently change someone's taste in guitar tone. A high percentage of the guitars recorded or played back on digital gear are classic guitars recorded on classic tube amps.

If you listen to an SG into a cranked Marshall that's been recorded on analog tape and pressed into vinyl, that's a whole different tone than plugging an SG into a Marshall in a jam space and cranking it. You've got the sound of the mic'd cab in that particular room, all of the EQ/compression/etc, and you're listening to it on whatever system you're using, not a pair of 4x12 loaded with greenbacks.

Neither the AC/DC fan listening on a tube hifi system in 1979 nor the one listening to an AAC or FLAC file via airpods in 2020 is getting the experience of standing in the same room as an amp. It's the same reason that hearing someone sing unamplified in a room is a different experience from hearing a recording or listening to them over a PA. They're not singing directly into your ear from six inches away and you're not listening to that amp with your ear right up to the cabinet - but the microphone is.

[blunderbuss]

In two pages we went from dunking on bursts to talking the subjectivity of how our ears perceive sound. Good thread 9/10 would read again.

[gishuk]

, a Jazzmaster with a humbucker duct-taped inbetween the JM single coils, covered in stickers and with three extra mystery knobs added to it.

This is the most OSG apt description ever And I don't mean that in a disparaging way as I immediately thought 'That guitar sounds pretty fucking cool'

[Larsongs]

My reference was re; Records, Cd's & MP3's... Not so much Live Performances..

Although, There was a time when Music was performed Live & Recorded without the use of any Transistors or SS Technology... It was all Analog... Many believe that to be the peak of Sound.

Although, I'm sure in the time of Steinway & Stradivarious Live Orchestral Performances were the the Pinnacle to many.. It was truly Live. No AI. Analog, Digital or otherwise..

I get the impression you prefer SS & Digital...

IMO Tube Amps are heard as Tube Amps thru Sound Systems.. Digital Amps are heard as Digital.. I've done many Comparisons blindfolded & otherwise.. I can't think of one time I couldn't hear the difference..

I'm Mixing an Album recorded by a Band that used Plugins for Instruments & cheap Mics & cheap Pre Amps for Vocals.. It is one of the hardest Mixing jobs I've ever had with regard to trying to get a good Sound!!!

[manwithtitties]

Although, There was a time when Music was performed Live & Recorded without the use of any Transistors or SS Technology... It was all Analog... Many believe that to be the peak of Sound.

The fucking 30s-40s? Transistors have been used for a fucking long time in recording, and as far as i know theyre analog. This is absolute nonsense. Mbene responded to your nostalgic wanking with some actual nuanced points and positions and you just restart the same trite old points ive heard so often. Maybe you should focus on getting a good mix digitally instead of Choosing Which random Words To capitalise In Your sentences!

I wonder why ive never heard film editors complaining how cutting machines where so much better than NLEs.

[Larsongs]

The first working Transistor wasn't invented until 1947.. The first Transistor Radio was invented in 1954 but wasn't in common use til the late 50's & early 60's.. They sounded like Crap!!!

Non Transitor Analog Recording Gear was the standard in the 40's, 50's, 60's & beyond.. It was was & still is considered the pinnacle of Sound by many serious Audiophiles & Recording Studios..

Even in Pro Tools & Logic Studios much of the outboard Gear is Analog... And for good reason...

I know this to be true as I work with many Studios..

The old saying we can fix it in the Mix is somewhat true.. But. it's much better to start with a well recorded song. In the case of the Album I'm currently Mixing the other old saying 'Garbage in garbage out" has never been more true..

It's ok if you & others dig Transistor SS Digital... Doesn't mean everyone has to...

The point of my original Thread was aimed at opinions regarding various JM's & high end JM clones... Also, the shift of Players to Offsets by other makers like Schector etc.. Point being, how we're conditioned to Sound might affect what we think sounds good & can affect our choices... I guess that wasn't clear to some...

[mackerelmint]

The point of my original Thread was aimed at opinions regarding various JM's & high end JM clones... Also, the shift of Players to Offsets by other makers like Schector etc.. Point being, how we're conditioned to Sound might affect what we think sounds good & can affect our choices... I guess that wasn't clear to some...

Right! So, personal example here, when I was a kid and heard music on the radio, I was accustomed to hearing it all go through a limiter for broadcast. When I heard smaller, lower budget/college stations/community radio for the first time, that lack of compression that I never knew was happening in the first place sounded bad to my ears. I'm willing to bet I'm not the only one here who can relate to that.

We're absolutely products of conditioning, and how we think of sound is no exception. It's a great point.

[CivoLee]

The point of my original Thread was aimed at opinions regarding various JM's & high end JM clones... Also, the shift of Players to Offsets by other makers like Schector etc.. Point being, how we're conditioned to Sound might affect what we think sounds good & can affect our choices... I guess that wasn't clear to some...

I think by "Thread" you meant "Post", because this is my thread, pal

In answer to your question about whether or not production has anything to do with what's popular in terms of guitar tone, I think it has less to do with that and more to do with that sometime in the late 70s/early 80s, the "normal" electric guitar tone became a PAF-style humbucker driving a tube amp with multiple gain stages. Credit or blame whomever you want for that, whether it's Jimmy Page, Eric Clapton or Eddie Van Halen (RIP), but those are the facts. And modern mainstream guitars reflect that.

I think the elephant in the room that some people are ignoring is that in the golden years of alternative/indie rock, the most common mods - humbuckers and tunamatic bridges - were actually designed around making Jazzmasters/Jaguars/Mustangs/"weird" guitars from the 60s sound and feel like the Les Pauls and superstrats players were used to hearing but couldn't afford, at least tonally. They might've appreciated the comfort and unique look offsets gave them, plus that they were "nice" instruments that were relatively cheap. But at the end of the day, they wished they could afford a more mainstream instrument. And that's the kind of player the guitars in question are aimed at; someone who likes the look of an offset and they way they feel against their body, but wants a high performance, "professional" guitar that sounds more "typical" (I think I've used more quotation marks in this post than I ever have in a single post during my entire online life) tonewise.

As for my own opinion? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, I guess? At least the Raven offers some unique body wood and finish options not available from Fender, but I agree that the Anderson headstock lacks soul. It's like Jeremy Clarkson's feelings on McClaren; great performance, but "there's no art". If I wanted an "hot" Strat with an offset flavor and money was no object, I'd sooner look at a Don Grosh ElectraJet:



I'd want want a G90 (Grosh's version of a P90) in the neck and no middle pickup, though...

[Jaguar018]

I don't mind high end boutique Jazzmasters. Like most of the people here, I don't particularly need or want one, and I struggle to think of what kind of person really would. I suppose my strawman would be a tech bro who liked 'Alternative' music when he was younger, but doesn't like to fuss with stuff so an offset that is ready to RAWK is what they want? Who knows? I don't think there are too many of the types of players that would be attracted to this kind of thing on OSG.

I have had Ron Kirn build a custom guitar for me, and I have a Fender Custom Shop Jaguar. My more recent projects have been parts guitars. I'd love a G&L Doheny custom build if I had an excess of cash just to see how it plays and feels.

The world of guitars is so strange with its complexities. What is cool, what isn't cool, what is cool by not being cool and the reverse. Different brands and body styles and their associated genres. All of the unspoken rules. The perceptible and imperceptible levels of snobbery that run rampant with gear and all the different ways some people like to deny that they are just as bad as everyone else.

[beninma]

Some of us might want to be careful about how we throw around terms like "middle-aged" and "classic rock", given that anyone old enough to remember groups like Nirvana, Sonic Youth and the Cure when they were considered "current" music are in or quickly approaching their 40s, and the kind of music that made offsets popular is old enough to be considered "classic rock" in some circles

Yep.. a lot of music is thoroughly "Dad Rock" but the offset crowd just hasn't come to grips with that, or is too immature to realize there's nothing wrong with Dad rock or being a dad anyway and that it's all in good fun.

Let's keep in mind if you were around for that stuff you are old enough that you could have kids old enough to have a band.

I mean realistically.. the core Nirvana demographic is about 50. I'm in my mid 40s and I was too young to have been able to go to a Nirvana concert. Maybe if my parents had been super cool but otherwise no... I was too young to drive myself there, and was too young to work to get enough money to pay for a ticket. Kids in college & HS today who are old enough to play in a band were likewise not born for the heyday of the Indie scene.

I don't begrudge anyone their choice of guitars. If you're in your 20s your tune could change a lot by 30s or 40s. Money gets easier to come by. Expensive guitars are still stupid cheap in the grand scale of "grown up toys". You can buy a couple boutique guitars if you skip a motorcycle or delete a few expensive options from the car you drive.

Fender is staggeringly stubborn with what they offer. A lot of the other brands make guitars that have something different about them. Different is good. And so many players are so stuck on Fender they have no idea what's even out there. People buy pedals and all kinds of other stuff just to solve problems that aren't even problems with the non-Fender guitars that have been improved. In some cases Leo Fender fixed the problems and the fixes are in the Music Man or G&L guitars he put out after.. and players don't even look at that stuff with an open mind. Wanting a Fender name brand is 100% as much about status seeking as buying a PRS or a Music Man or a Suhr or a Nash or a G&L, cause you're elevating the sticker on the headstock above other concerns even if there's something about the other brands that would serve you better. The whole point of offsets AFAICT was to be different and then you get people criticizing guitars that are different. It screams "I'm unique in exactly the same way as all the other people in my scene!"


Ironic cause I stumbled onto this thread while listening to... Nirvana.

[SignoftheDragon]

When I first joined here I remember giving some kid a hard time for a "Goo" poster on his wall- asked him if he was even born when that record came out. (He had- but only barely!)

I find that there are plenty of 'kids' still getting into Nirvana, Sonic Youth, etc- I've always equated it with the kids in my high school who were Zeppelin/Floyd T-shirt wearers or the Grateful Dead kids.

I often wonder if I am one of 'those guys' talking about "seeing Nirvana open for the Swans in '92- and thinking that they sucked" guys. And then I realize that yes, I am that dude. I can't help it.

And yes, the Classic Rock station here in the Salt Lake market plays a lot of Soundgarden, Nirvana, Pearl Jam and U2. I end up stopping there a lot if I'm checking the stations.

[beninma]

I weirdly have little desire to play/learn much 90s music even though that's squarely the music of my teen years & early 20s.

I don't really care to play Clapton stuff but a lot of stuff I like must be Dad rock, it's old enough I didn't know about it till I started playing guitar. But I just play for fun & take some lessons.

A lot of grunge feels every bit as stoopid to me now as 80s glam rock/cock rock/hair metal, even though I ate it all up just like everyone else my age at the time. Smashing Pumpkins was my favorite band in the mid-90s and they're the only one I have ever bothered to try to learn any of.

I'm ready for EDM to die and maybe some 80s sounds to come back. LOL. Rock is so boring lately I am starting to not hate Country anymore.

If you even ask me what my favorite thing about Offsets is it's probably surf rock & spaghetti westerns. I had no idea what any of it even was till Pulp Fiction came out and I was like WTF is this music? I love that I can just go the middle position and crank the reverb and I'm there.

[marqueemoon]

HNB’s Marauder build has given me major Bilt Revelator GAS. I’m picturing BMM with a roasted maple neck, low wind Fralin Big Singles, and the full Marauder-style plate setup with Jag-style controls instead of onboard effects.