Woodcraft Bobcat - Jaguar meets Talman

Discussion of newer designs, copies and reissue offset-waist instruments.
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Woodcraft Bobcat - Jaguar meets Talman

Post by MayTheFuzzBeWithYou » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:59 am

Hey there.
Yesterday I was browsing through Göldo's Vibrato offerings - as I'm currently looking for one (their oddball offset variant) for my Eastwood Sidejack and another one for an upcoming build - their DG Vibrato Squid design looks cool. And when I was browsing for pictures of it on an actual guitar I stumbled across this one.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CC88IbSn9sl ... hare_sheet
https://images.app.goo.gl/sUeaJ9a7SRQDsLb66

It appears to be something between a Jaguar and a Talman (well at least the neck) I love their take on the lower control plate as I already thought about doing something similar on my upcoming Telemaster. But it didn't even look half as cool in Mint or Black plastic as it does in metal.

No budget for buying one of those - but I think they look good. The Squid design suits it surprisingly well - the two round things beside it look like stop tail-piece remains...

Does anyone of you have any experiences with these?

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Re: Woodcraft Bobcat - Jaguar meets Talman

Post by Zork » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:25 am

I don't know about Woodcraft but I installed the DG trem on my recent Bass VI build and it's a fantastic unit. Do you have any specific questions?

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Re: Woodcraft Bobcat - Jaguar meets Talman

Post by MayTheFuzzBeWithYou » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:38 am

Zork wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:25 am
I don't know about Woodcraft but I installed the DG trem on my recent Bass VI build and it's a fantastic unit. Do you have any specific questions?
Hey Zork!
Do you have the Squid one (like on the pics of the woodcraft) or the one with the more offsetish looking baseplate and the Lest Trem arm? I'd very much like to see pics of yours and how you would describe range, feel and tuning-stability?

Thanks a lot!
Markus

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Re: Woodcraft Bobcat - Jaguar meets Talman

Post by BoringPostcards » Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:15 am

Interesting design. Nice combination of features, however I am so tired of all these brand new brands and new designs coming out with relic finishes.
How is a brand new guitar damaged, as if it existed for decades?
I don't hate relics, but keep them to designs, that could actually be old enough to have wear and tear.
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Re: Woodcraft Bobcat - Jaguar meets Talman

Post by 601210 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:48 am

BoringPostcards wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:15 am
Interesting design. Nice combination of features, however I am so tired of all these brand new brands and new designs coming out with relic finishes.
How is a brand new guitar damaged, as if it existed for decades?
I don't hate relics, but keep them to designs, that could actually be old enough to have wear and tear.
It's an anachronism. Like renfairs and steampunk designs. It has its place and I understand why it's cool to people, and I don't think it's trying to misrepresent the guitar or anything like that. Companies that lean on 50s space age stylings are pretty much in the same boat, no?

I do think that it's a pretty ugly relic job, though, and I think the retro-futuristic look would have done much better with a clean or closet-clean finish rather than going full on blues dad.

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Re: Woodcraft Bobcat - Jaguar meets Talman

Post by BoringPostcards » Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:47 am

601210 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:48 am
BoringPostcards wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:15 am
Interesting design. Nice combination of features, however I am so tired of all these brand new brands and new designs coming out with relic finishes.
How is a brand new guitar damaged, as if it existed for decades?
I don't hate relics, but keep them to designs, that could actually be old enough to have wear and tear.
It's an anachronism. Like renfairs and steampunk designs. It has its place and I understand why it's cool to people, and I don't think it's trying to misrepresent the guitar or anything like that. Companies that lean on 50s space age stylings are pretty much in the same boat, no?

I do think that it's a pretty ugly relic job, though, and I think the retro-futuristic look would have done much better with a clean or closet-clean finish rather than going full on blues dad.
Anachronism in design elements is fine, but going ham on said design to add years of wear is an entirely different thing, in my opinion.
I get that people like it, otherwise they wouldn't sell.
I don't see it as misrepresentation, rather more of a lazy way of jumping on the relic bandwagon.
Steampunk is a different thing altogether. It's a fashion and an art style, not a method of artificial aging.
Steampunk is obvious in its intention, and people know it, when they see it.
I don't get the same vibe from a modern design appearing 50 years old.
I am not sure how to explain it, it just rubs me the wrong way. I am not trying to be a contrarian, it just seems lazy to me.

I want a time machine, so I can prevent Fano from popularizing it.
"Can you please pass me a jug of winter light?" - Lee Ranaldo 2000
Det er mig der holder træerne sammen.

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Re: Woodcraft Bobcat - Jaguar meets Talman

Post by losador » Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:12 am

BoringPostcards wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:47 am
601210 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:48 am
BoringPostcards wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:15 am
Interesting design. Nice combination of features, however I am so tired of all these brand new brands and new designs coming out with relic finishes.
How is a brand new guitar damaged, as if it existed for decades?
I don't hate relics, but keep them to designs, that could actually be old enough to have wear and tear.
It's an anachronism. Like renfairs and steampunk designs. It has its place and I understand why it's cool to people, and I don't think it's trying to misrepresent the guitar or anything like that. Companies that lean on 50s space age stylings are pretty much in the same boat, no?

I do think that it's a pretty ugly relic job, though, and I think the retro-futuristic look would have done much better with a clean or closet-clean finish rather than going full on blues dad.
Anachronism in design elements is fine, but going ham on said design to add years of wear is an entirely different thing, in my opinion.
I get that people like it, otherwise they wouldn't sell.
I don't see it as misrepresentation, rather more of a lazy way of jumping on the relic bandwagon.
Steampunk is a different thing altogether. It's a fashion and an art style, not a method of artificial aging.
Steampunk is obvious in its intention, and people know it, when they see it.
I don't get the same vibe from a modern design appearing 50 years old.
I am not sure how to explain it, it just rubs me the wrong way. I am not trying to be a contrarian, it just seems lazy to me.

I want a time machine, so I can prevent Fano from popularizing it.
I'm with you, 100%. Of course it's a subjective thing, and I myself did buy one guitar which is relic'd (a Jazzmaster but only some slight wear luckily so just about gets away with it).. In fact it boggles my mind that you can buy so many guitars which are relic'd but hardly any in nitro but fresh! Which would be my ideal.. I don't know, I think it just strikes me as a bit disingenuous to make something look older than it actually is. But, that's only me, and good luck to anyone who does like that stuff!

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Re: Woodcraft Bobcat - Jaguar meets Talman

Post by 601210 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:44 am

losador wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:12 am

In fact it boggles my mind that you can buy so many guitars which are relic'd but hardly any in nitro but fresh! [...]
The reason behind it is that it's hard for the fairly affordable finishing outfits to put out spotless nitro by hand at the turnover rate they need to be profitable. You can hide imperfections with a little light relic, but very few places will offer a clean gloss and the few that do charge extra.

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Re: Woodcraft Bobcat - Jaguar meets Talman

Post by losador » Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:46 am

601210 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:44 am
losador wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:12 am

In fact it boggles my mind that you can buy so many guitars which are relic'd but hardly any in nitro but fresh! [...]
The reason behind it is that it's hard for the fairly affordable finishing outfits to put out spotless nitro by hand at the turnover rate they need to be profitable. You can hide imperfections with a little light relic, but very few places will offer a clean gloss and the few that do charge extra.
Do people just relic where there are imperfections though? I thought they tended to go on places where you would see natural wear..

EDIT - looking at the photo at the top of this thread, that is some seriously heavy relic. Is it really less work to do that than to spray in one colour all over?

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Re: Woodcraft Bobcat - Jaguar meets Talman

Post by MayTheFuzzBeWithYou » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:31 am

Haha, well...that escalated quickly into a "we don't like relic jobs" tenor.

Same for me. I think you have to "earn" those marks and the wear - and if I buy a new guitar - I want a new guitar!

But I really was surprised by how quick Nitro chips.
Some of you have already seen it - my double bound B&B "Liquid Thunder" Jazzmaster that Rexter did for me. Besides my old 60s Tribute Les Paul Studio (of which I didn't know it was Nitro) that was the first Nitro guitar I bought.
I ordered as little aged/relic as possible (besides the color - and the checking on the lacquer - which was even a little too much at first but has grown on me) but the first chips appeared within days - in the mere installation and setup process (pickguard screws/neck pocket etc.) - which was really extreme compared to all my Poly finished guitars who had a chip when the little plastic thing on the front of my strap broke (shame on you planet waves) and the guitar fell - or if I dropped them in other ways...


Back to the (main) topic: any other opinions or insights on this Squid Vibrato? Range, feel, etc.?
I will get their Offset Vibrato within the next month - so then I can tell you something about it - but the Squid design isn't available on the shop I order my stuff normally and I also don't (yet) have a guitar to put it on.

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Re: Woodcraft Bobcat - Jaguar meets Talman

Post by 601210 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:46 am

losador wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:46 am

Do people just relic where there are imperfections though? I thought they tended to go on places where you would see natural wear..

EDIT - looking at the photo at the top of this thread, that is some seriously heavy relic. Is it really less work to do that than to spray in one colour all over?
It's not the reason why there are so many relics, but it's the reason why there are so few clean. It's much much harder to do a 99% perfect paint job than it is to do an 80% one and just scratch it up to look intentional.

But yes, back to the actual topic by all means :ph34r:

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Re: Woodcraft Bobcat - Jaguar meets Talman

Post by BoringPostcards » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:36 am

losador wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:12 am
BoringPostcards wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:47 am
601210 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:48 am


It's an anachronism. Like renfairs and steampunk designs. It has its place and I understand why it's cool to people, and I don't think it's trying to misrepresent the guitar or anything like that. Companies that lean on 50s space age stylings are pretty much in the same boat, no?

I do think that it's a pretty ugly relic job, though, and I think the retro-futuristic look would have done much better with a clean or closet-clean finish rather than going full on blues dad.
Anachronism in design elements is fine, but going ham on said design to add years of wear is an entirely different thing, in my opinion.
I get that people like it, otherwise they wouldn't sell.
I don't see it as misrepresentation, rather more of a lazy way of jumping on the relic bandwagon.
Steampunk is a different thing altogether. It's a fashion and an art style, not a method of artificial aging.
Steampunk is obvious in its intention, and people know it, when they see it.
I don't get the same vibe from a modern design appearing 50 years old.
I am not sure how to explain it, it just rubs me the wrong way. I am not trying to be a contrarian, it just seems lazy to me.

I want a time machine, so I can prevent Fano from popularizing it.
I'm with you, 100%. Of course it's a subjective thing, and I myself did buy one guitar which is relic'd (a Jazzmaster but only some slight wear luckily so just about gets away with it).. In fact it boggles my mind that you can buy so many guitars which are relic'd but hardly any in nitro but fresh! Which would be my ideal.. I don't know, I think it just strikes me as a bit disingenuous to make something look older than it actually is. But, that's only me, and good luck to anyone who does like that stuff!
Yea, I would go for a relic ready, if I were to go that route, so that the wear would reflect my personal treatment of the instrument as time passes.
That being said, I have loved all the MIM relics I've played. The Teles and Jags were really nice. I totally understand people buying them for feel alone. A worn in neck is a great thing.
I just feel like a lot of builders are capitalizing on the trend, by not having to do proper finishes.
I know the relic process is extra work, but nobody could accuse them of having bad finish work, if they never release a standard paint job, right?
Relic jobs have varying levels of competence, and not everyone is doing it at Danocaster's level. They're not all doing them individually and with unique wear. Not even the Fender Custom Shop.
Instead, they're using templates, and putting out thousands of guitars with the exact same wear pattern.
This is a dead horse slogfest of an argument at this point though. Sorry for derailing the thread.
Talman and Jag is a cool mix.
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Re: Woodcraft Bobcat - Jaguar meets Talman

Post by Zork » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:59 am

So, about the vibrato: I chose the horseshoe design for my Musima VI build but all of the different design variants share the same mechanic principle.
As a Vibrato, it is very easy to setup. There's a big fat screw for balance between string tension and the spring. It feels basically like dialing in the balance with a potentiometer. It's pretty cool.
The range is wider than a Bigsby or a Jazzmaster trem. About the same as a well setup Strat trem, but much smoother and easier to operate. Also, it holds the tuning very, very well. It's a very clever design and looks and feels exceptionally good.
There are two downsides: first, the trem arm is too short for my taste and has a weird shape. Second, if you want to install it on a Tele or SG or so, you'll need to drill a huge hole in the body for the spring. On the other hand it's much easier to drill a hole than to route the cavity for a JM trem...
Oh, and it would be cool to have a trem lock in case of string break.

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Re: Woodcraft Bobcat - Jaguar meets Talman

Post by CivoLee » Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:34 pm

BoringPostcards wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:47 am
I want a time machine, so I can prevent Fano from popularizing it.
I thought the relicing thing started because Fender brought some guitars for Keith Richards and he complained they looked "too new", and they needed to "bash 'em up a bit" before he'd play them?

On the subject of the guitar itself, it looks cool, but yeah, no on the relicing. I don't even like natural relicing all that much. I like Les Paul goldtops, but if they start to "green" (because the original gold paint contains copper, and it can oxidize if the finish wears enough), it looks gross to me, as if you could get a disease by touching it.
Last edited by CivoLee on Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Woodcraft Bobcat - Jaguar meets Talman

Post by BoringPostcards » Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:41 pm

CivoLee wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:34 pm
BoringPostcards wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:47 am
I want a time machine, so I can prevent Fano from popularizing it.
I thought the relicing thing started because Fender brought some guitars for Keith Richards and he complained they looked "too new", and they needed to "bash 'em up a bit" before he'd play them?
I have nothing against the usual common vintage style relics, I was referring to Dano starting the trend of using relics on new original designs.
I have heard the Keef story before. It could be true.
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