Treble bleed on volume - yea or nay?

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beninma
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Re: Treble bleed on volume - yea or nay?

Post by beninma » Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:06 am

I've ended up as the kind of player that rides the volume knob.. I would say my amp selection (Orange) has maybe contributed to this more than the guitars I've had.

I played a Tele the majority of the time I've been playing. I ran the Tele both with and without the Treble Bleed. Both had advantages and disadvantages on that guitar.

If you like to use Fuzzes and Big Muffs and such the treble bleed can be really fantastic. My experience has kind of been some of these pedals drop out the high end as the guitar volume is rolled off. If you've got a treble bleed it can help unlock a whole bunch of tones that you can't get otherwise. Once the signal is too dark it's hard to add the brightness back in. But with a treble bleed if the effect is too bright you can still roll the tone knob back on the guitar.

However my Tele with the simple capacitor Treble Bleed could also get too bright with the knob rolled off sometimes.

I have a G&L Doheny.. the G&L PTB system incorporates a treble bleed + tone knob + bass knob. It's a fantastic setup. The treble bleed works very well in that circuit. It doesn't feel like it gets brighter as you roll the guitar volume back.. it feels very neutral & balanced. Being able to cut bass at the guitar increases the flexibility a ton too.

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mbene085
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Re: Treble bleed on volume - yea or nay?

Post by mbene085 » Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:01 pm

In my experience, different pickups and pots react differently to treble bleed circuits. I know there are people who can tell you why, and which circuit to use, but my very unscientific approach is to randomly try the different value caps that are commonly suggested and different combinations of cap&resistor if the first one I tried makes the guitar too bright as you roll down the knob.

I don't used the volume knob very much these days though, because I went digital with my amps (first Kemper, then AxeFX). I can map the exact same amp/pedal tone with different gain levels to a footswitch, or even to an expressing pedal if I want to swell it instead of instantly switch. I also prefer pedals for volume swells, I have small hands and never found the "pinky swell" technique to be ergonomic for my hands or the way I play, not that I'm trying to emulate pedal steel playing anyway.

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Re: Treble bleed on volume - yea or nay?

Post by timtam » Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:16 pm

mbene085 wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:01 pm
In my experience, different pickups and pots react differently to treble bleed circuits. I know there are people who can tell you why, and which circuit to use, but my very unscientific approach is to randomly try the different value caps that are commonly suggested and different combinations of cap&resistor if the first one I tried makes the guitar too bright as you roll down the knob.

I don't used the volume knob very much these days though, because I went digital with my amps (first Kemper, then AxeFX). I can map the exact same amp/pedal tone with different gain levels to a footswitch, or even to an expressing pedal if I want to swell it instead of instantly switch. I also prefer pedals for volume swells, I have small hands and never found the "pinky swell" technique to be ergonomic for my hands or the way I play, not that I'm trying to emulate pedal steel playing anyway.
Trial and error does seem to be the best available approach with treble bleeds. If you have a standard configuration (pickups, pots) there will be common values out there that will get you in the same ballpark as everyone else. Which you may or may not like. Anything non-standard and you have to start from scratch. With at least 3 common circuits (single cap and none/one/two resistors, in series or parallel), the obsessive might wish to invest in individual resistance and capacitance decade boxes (< $30 each), or a flash combined one to easily fiddle with values to get the right sonic effect. ;)
https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/ ... d-networks
Image
https://www.altronics.com.au/p/k7520-re ... e-box-kit/

There are also adjustable treble bleed circuits available ...
https://guitarelectronics.com/v-treb-va ... d-circuit/
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Re: Treble bleed on volume - yea or nay?

Post by BlueMelody » Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:36 pm

beninma wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:06 am
I've ended up as the kind of player that rides the volume knob.. I would say my amp selection (Orange) has maybe contributed to this more than the guitars I've had.

I played a Tele the majority of the time I've been playing. I ran the Tele both with and without the Treble Bleed. Both had advantages and disadvantages on that guitar.

If you like to use Fuzzes and Big Muffs and such the treble bleed can be really fantastic. My experience has kind of been some of these pedals drop out the high end as the guitar volume is rolled off. If you've got a treble bleed it can help unlock a whole bunch of tones that you can't get otherwise. Once the signal is too dark it's hard to add the brightness back in. But with a treble bleed if the effect is too bright you can still roll the tone knob back on the guitar.

However my Tele with the simple capacitor Treble Bleed could also get too bright with the knob rolled off sometimes.

I have a G&L Doheny.. the G&L PTB system incorporates a treble bleed + tone knob + bass knob. It's a fantastic setup. The treble bleed works very well in that circuit. It doesn't feel like it gets brighter as you roll the guitar volume back.. it feels very neutral & balanced. Being able to cut bass at the guitar increases the flexibility a ton too.
Great point with fuzzes, treble bleeds can really unlock a lot of very cool fuzztones that you wouldn’t be able to achieve without.

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Re: Treble bleed on volume - yea or nay?

Post by kalipigeon » Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:16 pm

It just depends on the fuzz. Modern fuzzes where the load coming into the circuit is less important can benefit from the brightness boost at lower knob settings.

That said, if you use a vintage design fuzz (usually as the first pedal in your chain) and roll back on the volume to clean and brighten it...you may have issues. It really depends on what the pedal is expecting to see at the input.

The easiest solution if you use both and want flexibility would be to put a switch in that can add or remove it from the circuit. A push/pull or push/push on the tone pot doesnt require extra holes in the guard and gives you both tones.

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Re: Treble bleed on volume - yea or nay?

Post by Loobster » Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:56 am

I have it on one guitar but actually enjoy how rolling back the volume darkens the tone a bit on my JM, which is already plenty bright.

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Re: Treble bleed on volume - yea or nay?

Post by Powdered Toast Man » Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:34 am

Update: I finally got my StewMac order yesterday (the first one got lost and they had to ship it again). Installed the treble bleed on my Jag and yep, I'd call it a mandatory mod when dealing with 1 meg volume pots.

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Re: Treble bleed on volume - yea or nay?

Post by Mr_Martin » Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:12 am

Don't need no treble bleed, my pots are always on 10.

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Re: Treble bleed on volume - yea or nay?

Post by Mondaysoutar » Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:38 am

Mr_Martin wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:12 am
Don't need no treble bleed, my pots are always on 10.

Haha, fair play man. I’ve not had my tone above 5 on any JM/Jag I’ve had in I don't know how long! Personally, I like the roll off on the treble using the volume, but certainly sounds interesting using a treble bleed.

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Re: Treble bleed on volume - yea or nay?

Post by Powdered Toast Man » Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:53 am

I play a lot on the edge of breakup. So I use the guitar volume pot to work between my overdriven sound and clean(ish) sound. With the pot in stock form I couldn't do that because as soon as I'd roll the volume lower than 9.5 it would get really muddy. Now I've got some play in the volume pot to work with.

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Re: Treble bleed on volume - yea or nay?

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:20 am

I've never messed with treble bleed, but I'm curious to try. Have any of you guys tried 50s style wiring opposed to treble bleed? I haven't tried that one myself either, but I'm curious there too.
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Re: Treble bleed on volume - yea or nay?

Post by Veitchy » Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:31 am

Shadoweclipse13 wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:20 am
I've never messed with treble bleed, but I'm curious to try. Have any of you guys tried 50s style wiring opposed to treble bleed? I haven't tried that one myself either, but I'm curious there too.
Not in JM, but a bit in Teles. If you haven't tried it and have a soldering iron handy, give it a go - you can reverse it in the time it takes to make a a cup of tea. I find that it does help a bit with the high-end attenuation when you roll the volume down, though not to the same extent as a TBC. I also noticed that I'd occasionally want to touch up my tone control a tad after moving the volume as the controls feel like they interact with each other more. On Teles I tend to ride the controls a fair bit to shape my sound, even within the same song, so this didn't bother me that much.

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Re: Treble bleed on volume - yea or nay?

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:57 am

Veitchy wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:31 am
Shadoweclipse13 wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:20 am
I've never messed with treble bleed, but I'm curious to try. Have any of you guys tried 50s style wiring opposed to treble bleed? I haven't tried that one myself either, but I'm curious there too.
Not in JM, but a bit in Teles. If you haven't tried it and have a soldering iron handy, give it a go - you can reverse it in the time it takes to make a a cup of tea. I find that it does help a bit with the high-end attenuation when you roll the volume down, though not to the same extent as a TBC. I also noticed that I'd occasionally want to touch up my tone control a tad after moving the volume as the controls feel like they interact with each other more. On Teles I tend to ride the controls a fair bit to shape my sound, even within the same song, so this didn't bother me that much.
I've read that vintage 50s style wiring is more interactive. I'm fairly handy with a soldering iron, but I'm currently designing a pickup tester box with a ton of options that are switchable, so I can test things out without committing to a final soldered circuit until I find the perfect mix.
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http://www.offsetguitars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=104282&p=1438384#p1438384

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Re: Treble bleed on volume - yea or nay?

Post by jorri » Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:49 am

Neither. I just have no volume control ;D

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Re: Treble bleed on volume - yea or nay?

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:29 pm

jorri wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:49 am
Neither. I just have no volume control ;D
Ha! Nice work around 8)
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