Why did the Toronado outlast most other post-1964 Fender solidbodies in terms of lifespan?

[CivoLee]

In the thread about Fender's new Noventa series of classic models loaded with P90s, someone lamented Fender not making new models instead of coming out with new variants of their longest-running models. I pointed out that they have released new models; they just don't seem to last more than two or three years in the lineup. While I was at it, I listed as many non-Strat/Tele/JM/Jag models as I could remember but for whatever reason left out the Toronado. For those unaware (though I doubt there are that many given the demographic of this site), the Toronado was sort of a hybrid between a Jazzmaster (offset body) and a Gibson SG (large pickguard, dual humbuckers with individual volume and tone controls, 24.75" scale). Released in 1999 as part of the Mexican lineup, it actually had some high visibility for a while, appearing in music videos for The Calling's "Wherever You Will Go", Red Hot Chili Peppers' "Can't Stop" and, um, Liam Lynch's "United States of Whatever". The Toronado had several iterations over its lifespan, moving up to the American Special lineup for a few years (as well as a short-lived mid-grade USA model in the Highway 1 series with only a master volume and tone control for both pickups) before its final iteration as a striped Competition model in 2007, after which the ax fell. Squier brought it back recently as part of the Paranormal lineup, but it's gone from Fender's website, so I guess it'll go back into retirement once the current batch is sold out.

So why did the Toronado last nearly a decade in Fender's lineup while other Fenders beyond the Stratocaster, Telecaster, Jazzmaster and Jaguar are done after only two or three years? The only "other" Fender that lasted longer was the original 15-year run of the Mustang from 1964-81, which was arguably only revived due to Kurt Cobain, Liz Phair and various other alternative/indie rock icons (likely the reason the JM/Jag came back as well). My guess is that there were people in Fender's top brass that really wanted to make the design work, hence the multiple iterations of the guitar, but sales just weren't enough for there to be any business case for continuing the model. One could hypothesize the reason for HH JMs becoming common was to be a substitute for the Toro in the "rock-oriented offset" market.

And for that matter, why hasn't Fender tried to continue any other models beyond its Big 4? I thought they had some neat new designs with the Meteora and Powercaster (the Sixty Six was just a guitar with a shrunken down Jazz Bass body, so it technically doesn't count as a "new design"), but apparently the market didn't agree...

[s_mcsleazy]

i think it's because the toronado was kinda like an offset but without the issues people associated offsets with at the time. i used to collab with this alt-rock guitar player in the mid 00's who had one and the way she always said she liked it was simply because it wasn't like me with my jaguar where (at the time) i was always tweeking the bridge, they could just plug in and go. i think part of it was also because i remember les paul specials and sg's being popular at the time and the toro often felt like the best of a fender and the best of a gibson.

p.s. there was one picture i always remember that used to get shared around OSG like 10 years ago that made me want a toro even more. it was the toro with the jazzmaster trem being played by a dude with curly hair. people used to think it was me for a bit.

[ShatoonBringerOfCorn]

And for that matter, why hasn't Fender tried to continue any other models beyond its Big 4? I thought they had some neat new designs with the Meteora and Powercaster (the Sixty Six was just a guitar with a shrunken down Jazz Bass body, so it technically doesn't count as a "new design"), but apparently the market didn't agree...

This is the bigger question for me! I love the look of the '66, I just want it in other finishes. I wish they'd give these new/niche models a bit more of a chance. Maybe even try them out in cheaper versions first to see how well they sell, instead of the current approach of having them only available as high-end expensive ones. I know if I could afford it, I'd like a '66, Meteora and a California Special.

[Veitchy]

the Toronado was sort of a hybrid between a Jazzmaster (offset body) and a Gibson SG (large pickguard, dual humbuckers with individual volume and tone controls, 24.75" scale).

I think you're at the nub of it there. It's a versatile platform, and the closest thing to a SG/Les Paul in the lineup at the time. Being both a Fender and not a Strat probably gave it a bit of extra indie cred to boot. A mate at school got one of the comp striped ones and really liked it. I reckon it was about the only one I'd seen from that era in Australia ( I think he had to order it in). I wish I picked one up at the time myself.

[Futuron]

They should add it to the Player series.


And I agree about the Alternate Reality guitars, they were very promising but underdone. Hard to get hold of, not enough finishes. I feel similar about some Paranormal guitars too

[Ceylon]

the Toronado was sort of a hybrid between a Jazzmaster (offset body) and a Gibson SG (large pickguard, dual humbuckers with individual volume and tone controls, 24.75" scale).

I think you're at the nub of it there. It's a versatile platform, and the closest thing to a SG/Les Paul in the lineup at the time. Being both a Fender and not a Strat probably gave it a bit of extra indie cred to boot. A mate at school got one of the comp striped ones and really liked it. I reckon it was about the only one I'd seen from that era in Australia ( I think he had to order it in). I wish I picked one up at the time myself.

Yeah, I reckon it is this. It was a Gibsony enough Fender for the people who preferred the Fender aesthetic but wanted the GIbson sound and feel. By now you can get dual humbucker Strats, dual PAF Teles, Jazzmasters, Jaguars, Mustangs et cetera. The Mustang might have been dead, sure, but it's also more of it's own thing, with a Fender scale and a proprietary vibrato, single coils etc, so in both being and intent it more naturally fills a role in the Fender line-up. The Toronado felt more like a kind of hodgepodge of elements that appealed to a certain crowd but didn't offer anything all that special or desirable.

Like white chocolate Twix. It's good stuff, and it certainly has its fans, and they've had it for a bunch of years now so it must be selling OK, but you just know in your heart it isn't going to be there forever.

Gibson made their Fendery offering, the Firebird, different enough that it kind of sits apart from both brands. It's not really like any other Gibson, not really like any Fender, it's never going to be the most popular Gibson by any stretch but if that's what you want, there's no real option but to get a Firebird. If you wanted what a Toronado had to offer, there was also a bunch of other guitars you could possibly get.

[ToneFerDayz!!1!]

the Toronado was sort of a hybrid between a Jazzmaster (offset body) and a Gibson SG (large pickguard, dual humbuckers with individual volume and tone controls, 24.75" scale).

I think you're at the nub of it there. It's a versatile platform, and the closest thing to a SG/Les Paul in the lineup at the time. Being both a Fender and not a Strat probably gave it a bit of extra indie cred to boot. A mate at school got one of the comp striped ones and really liked it. I reckon it was about the only one I'd seen from that era in Australia ( I think he had to order it in). I wish I picked one up at the time myself.

Yeah, I reckon it is this. It was a Gibsony enough Fender for the people who preferred the Fender aesthetic but wanted the GIbson sound and feel. By now you can get dual humbucker Strats, dual PAF Teles, Jazzmasters, Jaguars, Mustangs et cetera. The Mustang might have been dead, sure, but it's also more of it's own thing, with a Fender scale and a proprietary vibrato, single coils etc, so in both being and intent it more naturally fills a role in the Fender line-up. The Toronado felt more like a kind of hodgepodge of elements that appealed to a certain crowd but didn't offer anything all that special or desirable.

Like white chocolate Twix. It's good stuff, and it certainly has its fans, and they've had it for a bunch of years now so it must be selling OK, but you just know in your heart it isn't going to be there forever.

Gibson made their Fendery offering, the Firebird, different enough that it kind of sits apart from both brands. It's not really like any other Gibson, not really like any Fender, it's never going to be the most popular Gibson by any stretch but if that's what you want, there's no real option but to get a Firebird. If you wanted what a Toronado had to offer, there was also a bunch of other guitars you could possibly get.

Also, they were really affordable and available. I remember seeing them go for around $450-$500 new in the late 90s new, comparable to Epiphone Les Pauls and the G100 at the time, whereas (IIRC) Jaguars and Jazzies weren't really available until the AVRI reboot, unless you got them imported from Japan or bought used (prices on vintage ones were already starting to creep up in the late 90s). So, lots of guitarists who wanted something close to the look of Cobain's Jaguar or Sonic Youth's offsets had an option that was more affordable, plus it seems like people hated guitars with trems at the time.

I never really jived with them, but I certainly shared stages with lots of people who did in Pittsburgh and Chicago.

[Larry Mal]

I thought they were actually pretty popular on here, though.

I never understood the appeal.

[Embenny]

I always wanted to like them, but to me they just look like a Jazzmaster in its 1970s Elvis phase, binging on fried bacon and peanut butter sandwiches and dying a sweaty and bloated death on the toilet.

[burpgun]

I owned a black Mexican made Toronado from the early 2000s to a couple of years ago. The only thing that drew me to it at the time was that it was the only affordable offset Fender made at the time. I wanted a Jazzmaster but couldn't afford one, and the Toro was like half the price, so that's what I got.

The stock Atomic humbuckers were dark and highly microphonic and I replaced them with hum-sized P90s. It also accommodated a Roland MIDI pickup really well with all that empty space, which mattered a lot to me. It was a nicely built guitar and if you want that Gibson SG feel, it's in that ball park. But once I got into proper Jazzmasters, I did what I thought I'd never do and sell the Toronado, and I've never really looked back.

The only well known guy I'm aware of who really played a Toro, not just as part of a photoshoot or video, was the dude in Explosions in the Sky.

[bessieboporbach]

In the thread about Fender's new Noventa series of classic models loaded with P90s, someone lamented Fender not making new models instead of coming out with new variants of their longest-running models. I pointed out that they have released new models; they just don't seem to last more than two or three years in the lineup. While I was at it, I listed as many non-Strat/Tele/JM/Jag models as I could remember but for whatever reason left out the Toronado. For those unaware (though I doubt there are that many given the demographic of this site), the Toronado was sort of a hybrid between a Jazzmaster (offset body) and a Gibson SG (large pickguard, dual humbuckers with individual volume and tone controls, 24.75" scale). Released in 1999 as part of the Mexican lineup, it actually had some high visibility for a while, appearing in music videos for The Calling's "Wherever You Will Go", Red Hot Chili Peppers' "Can't Stop" and, um, Liam Lynch's "United States of Whatever". The Toronado had several iterations over its lifespan, moving up to the American Special lineup for a few years (as well as a short-lived mid-grade USA model in the Highway 1 series with only a master volume and tone control for both pickups) before its final iteration as a striped Competition model in 2007, after which the ax fell. Squier brought it back recently as part of the Paranormal lineup, but it's gone from Fender's website, so I guess it'll go back into retirement once the current batch is sold out.

So why did the Toronado last nearly a decade in Fender's lineup while other Fenders beyond the Stratocaster, Telecaster, Jazzmaster and Jaguar are done after only two or three years? The only "other" Fender that lasted longer was the original 15-year run of the Mustang from 1964-81, which was arguably only revived due to Kurt Cobain, Liz Phair and various other alternative/indie rock icons (likely the reason the JM/Jag came back as well). My guess is that there were people in Fender's top brass that really wanted to make the design work, hence the multiple iterations of the guitar, but sales just weren't enough for there to be any business case for continuing the model. One could hypothesize the reason for HH JMs becoming common was to be a substitute for the Toro in the "rock-oriented offset" market.

And for that matter, why hasn't Fender tried to continue any other models beyond its Big 4? I thought they had some neat new designs with the Meteora and Powercaster (the Sixty Six was just a guitar with a shrunken down Jazz Bass body, so it technically doesn't count as a "new design"), but apparently the market didn't agree...

One interesting side note about the Toronado is that the design has been surprisingly influential. There are many Reverend and Yamaha models in the current catalogue that closely resemble it. In fact pretty much every Reverend that isn't a Tele or a semi-hollow looks like a Toronado to some degree.

[smjenkins]

Let's not forget the direction Fender should take the Toronado (courtesy of Deed_Poll).

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=108237

[Embenny]

One interesting side note about the Toronado is that the design has been surprisingly influential. There are many Reverend and Yamaha models in the current catalogue that closely resemble it. In fact pretty much every Reverend that isn't a Tele or a semi-hollow looks like a Toronado to some degree.

Other way around, actually. The Reverend Avenger GT was released in 1997, and the Toronado debuted at NAMM in 1998.



Joe Naylor was obviously influenced by Fender's offsets, but the Toronado wasn't one of them.

[edit for broken link]

[rank]

p.s. there was one picture i always remember that used to get shared around OSG like 10 years ago that made me want a toro even more. it was the toro with the jazzmaster trem being played by a dude with curly hair. people used to think it was me for a bit.

I'm very slowly working on one!

[Fiddy]

Not a big fan of these. Kinda ugly Imo.