Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Discussion of newer designs, copies and reissue offset-waist instruments.
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SamthePlant
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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by SamthePlant » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:28 pm

Beebe wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:29 am
Sounds like it has a lot to do with the scooped nature of single coil pickups. All that shimmer and shine can get lost with a heavy drummer. The best thing you can do to address this is use an EQ pedal. If you have a fender amp or similar that shines in a clean environment then the issue is only exasperated. Start by cranking the mids on your amp higher than sounds good on its own. And make sure the other guitarist is using a different type of pickup for better separation. And some of the best Radiohead sounds came from wide range humbuckers (WRHB), so you might consider these over single coils.
Thanks for this insight! I didn't realize that single coils had an innate scoop to their sonic delivery.

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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by SamthePlant » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:35 pm

manwithtitties wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:16 pm
can everyone just listen to cloakroom for a second? Like this is one of my favorite bands. Does this sound like a band where you need a high gain amp, a noise gate or humbuckers? Or where behind the bridge ringing would be bad?

https://youtu.be/7O4uo3azc3M

https://youtu.be/cRV23dNfw78

No. Its the guitarist playing sus2 chords and the bassist playing the corresponding power chords at all times with russian big muffs on at the distorted parts. Analog delay, afterneath or tera echo and a reverse delay for the clean parts. Your drummer mentioning that he couldnt hear the mascis during practices is because of the bassist not being loud enough in the low mids. Your guitar has to kinda come through in the higher mids and not be heard as a seperate instrument, if that makes sense. I dont see how offsets couldnt work for this, because any guitar could work for this.

Deep Sea Station is definitely top 3 for Cloakroom in my opinion. Their lyrics are wonderful. Every time I listen to Cloakroom, i regret not taking more creative writing classes during my undergrad!

I think I know exactly what you mean in terms of the guitar not being perceived as a separate instrument. As a rhythm player, that's kind of what my goal is: contribute to the overall mix in a kind of inconspicuous way to leave room for the lead guitar to be the centre of sonic attention.

I feel like a lot of guitar players want their tone to be the centre of attention in the mix. I definitely want my guitar to be audible and to contribute to the overall sound, but being front and centre has never been my goal with my band.

I'm the lead singer, I get enough attention as is! Haha

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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by Embenny » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:13 pm

SamthePlant wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:28 pm
Thanks for this insight! I didn't realize that single coils had an innate scoop to their sonic delivery.
Well, they don't really have one.

The thing to understand is how inductance affects tone. Inductance (measured in Henries, H) can basically be conceptualized as a pickup's ability to convert movement of the string into electrical output. In the case of passive pickups, you can simplify this to "high inductance = high output, low inductance = low output," though there are extra factors I'll ignore for the purpose of this post.

Low inductance pickups like vintage Fender single coils have a massive and narrow peak ("high Q") at their resonant frequency, which usually lands in the 3-5 kHz ("icepick") range. As you wind a pickup hotter (raising its inductance), the resonant frequency drops and the resonant peak flattens out ("low Q").

Here's a good conceptual diagram:

Image

Here, we can see that winding strat pickup hotter raises overall output, drops the resonant frequency down toward vintage PAF territory and similarly starts flattening out that peak (lowering the Q). Lowering the wind of a PAF raises its resonant frequency and sharpens its peak. It's just that the vintage strat pickup was in the 2-3H range and a vintage PAF was in the 4-5H range. You can keep adding or removing winds from these designs and get them to swap places in terms of a single coil with higher inductance and lower resonant frequency and Q, and a humbucker with lower inductance, and higher frequency and Q.

Now look at these pickups:

Image

So, you can see that a DiMarzio PAF Pro has a similar-looking, high-Q resonant peak at a similar frequency as a vintage strat pickup. Why? Because it's a really low-inductance humbucker.

So, when you adjust your pedals/amps to achieve similar gain or volume from a low-inductance pickup (like the JMJM) compared to a high-inductance pickup (like your Les Paul), the level-matched tone has much more energy in the upper mids and much less in the lower mids.

Our hearing is nonlinear, and the human ear is most sensitive to frequencies from 2-5kHz. Many people use the term "midrange" to describe 500 Hz-2 kHz. So, a low-inductance pickup with the majority of its output concentrated right in the peak sensitivity range of our hearing will often be described as having a "midrange scoop," when in fact you can see that it has a "high-midrange boost" and no scoops at all.

It's just that high-inductance pickups put their resonant frequency right in that 500 Hz-2 kHz range, so low-inductance only sound "scooped" by comparison. It's more a matter of high-inductance pickups having a midrange boost vs low-inductance pickups having a high-midrange boost. If you use a low-capacitance cable and a very low-inductance pickup, you can actually push the resonant peak up out of the midrange frequencies entirely, into the treble range that guitar speakers don't even reproduce much, which gives the impression of a super-flat yet "sparkly"-sounding pickup, which is what the original lipstick tubes and Burns tri-sonics did.

Take a look at the response curve of a Celestion Greenback to see what I mean. It falls off a cliff beyond 5 kHz, which coupled with common guitar amp circuits and our less-sensitive hearing above that point gives the impression of having no boost at the resonant peak at all.

Image

So, really, none of the classic passive pickups typically have a "scoop" anywhere that's tonally relevant at all, which would mean a dip in its response at a specific frequency range compared to the ranges on either side. The general frequency response of any passive pickup is to be roughly flat from bass through somewhere in the midrange, rise near its resonant frequency, then steadily drop as you move beyond the resonant frequency. There are often some dips in the bass range, but these are typically lower than is relevant to the tuning of a guitar and the response of speakers used in guitar amps, which don't do much below 100 Hz. You can induce higher frequency dips by adding on additional passive circuits, but they aren't inherent properties of traditional high-impedance passive pickups.

Now, add in the drummer's perspective - you've got kick, toms, snare, and cymbals right in their face. The cymbals in particular are at or near ear height, and wash out a lot of frequencies since they're hit so often and have such a long decay compared to the snare (hit often, quick decay) and toms (hit less often, slower decay). Take a look at this chart:

Image

A guitar tone that is heavy in the lower mids and mids fits into the traditional tonal hole between the snare and cymbals. The upper mids compete with all that cymbal wash. A low inductance pickup puts a lot of information up there unless you boost those mids and low-mids.

In essence, you're having to learn how to be an audio engineer and balance a live mix and the drummer is giving you feedback that he can't hear you in his monitor (even if that monitor is just his ears in a practice room). That's why you hear people say over and over that the key to cutting through live with your guitar tone is midrange. Boosting those lower mids through pedal and amp settings, and/or taming the upper mids with a tone knob gets you more into the traditional hole in a mix where a guitar wants to live.
The artist formerly known as mbene085.

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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by Arc » Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:25 am

^^^ the best thing I read in ages! Thanks a lot!

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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by marqueemoon » Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:04 am

Arc wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:25 am
^^^ the best thing I read in ages! Thanks a lot!
Yep. Great post.

The right guitar sound is all about context.

Listening to isolated processed guitar tracks from a recording can be pretty eye opening in terms of what gets enhanced and what frequencies get carved away.

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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by HarlowTheFish » Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:14 am

mbene085 wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:13 pm
taming the upper mids with a tone knob gets you more into the traditional hole in a mix where a guitar wants to live.
Gonna go ahead and quote this because it's 100% the easiest way to get an idea of what you're missing. The tone knob doesn't just roll off treble, it shifts the resonant peak around. On my Mustang, which is plenty plinky and sounds like the intro to G.O.A.T. by Polyphia and not much else with everything on 10, I mucked around with some cap values and a treble bleed and whatnot and basically, tone on 0 is like Dimarzio Super Distortion/Tone Zone wall of thick chonk; tone on 5 is like PAF Pro/Duncan Full Shred or even mid-hot P90 territory, with bright, open, tones with not a ton of low end (but not thin), which is where I am most of the time; and tone on 10 is the more traditional Fendery sorta bright stringy plinky tones.

Not just a Fender thing either -- as Mike mentioned there's a couple different ways to skin a cat, so you get humbuckers with a similar profile to single-coils, singles that are more humbuckery, etc. -- my Kiesel with their Lithium humbuckers is straight up the brightest guitar I own (more low end than the Mustang however) to the point where with its treble on 7 I can swap it in and out for the Mustang without needing to change the EQ, just the input gain, but I keep a separate patch on my amp set up just for my proper humbucker axes.

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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by HNB » Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:24 am

Some of my favorites.

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Christopher
Lilith Guitars

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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by Kihtaristi » Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:57 pm

I checked Cloakroom out cause I was not familiar with them before. At least in some live on Kexp, the guitarist used Jim Adkins telecaster which is cool guitar for the price. I'd recommend you to check that one out first!

I have this Novo Serus J as my #1, that might do the trick also, but it's pricey and has 10-12 month waiting time.

Image

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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by beninma » Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:22 am

Reverend has already been mentioned.. they have some good options if you think the body is offset enough for you. Maybe the P90 style (humcutter?) rail hammer pickups?

The G&L Doheny would be worth looking at too. Either with the MFDs or the Humbuckers. The MFDs can be setup very hot for single coils but have less noise than usual. The Humbuckers are obviously humbuckers so good with lots of gain although I want to say they're supposed to be brighter than usual.

Both of these tend to have your Bass & Treble controls which can be handy with more gain.

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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by Ice Tre » Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:50 pm

The Lee Ranaldo signature Jazzmaster might be good for you. I have one. I know you said single coil pickups, but still might be worth considering. It came with modern Fender Wide Range Humbucker pickups. I felt the stock ones were a little muddy, and had them reworked by Curtis Novak. That gave them a little more clarity. These pickups are somewhat high gain-- around 10.5 kohms in output. I use mine for drop tunings, grungy distortion stuff. But it may be hard to find one these days, and may be a little pricey now.

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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by Powdered Toast Man » Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:46 am

Jazzmasters seem to work pretty well for Troy Van Leeuwen in QOTSA.

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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by shoule79 » Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:35 am

Hello fellow Ontarian!

Honestly, pick what you like that feels comfortable for you and use pedals. I started on offsets in the 90's, moved to LP's/Gibson's for awhile, then back to offsets. My band in the early 00's used to goof on old thrash metal during practice. I played Slayer many times on my JM (and a Rickenbacker) straight into my JCM 800.

A vintage style JM will cover more ground than you think with pedals. I have an Angry Charlie on my board that can morph it to sound similar to my Les Paul. It supplies more mids via the 3 band eq and had ton's of gain on tap. Its not 100%, but it'll fool anyone not in the front row. A tele, or offset telemaster , something that doesn't have the long runs of strings behind the bridge will be even closer (my tele isn't too far off my low output HB pickup Les Paul's tonal range). That pedal goes from Fugazi to MBV easily, and more.

I love my jag, but its not as flexible, and isn't as good at in between medium gain sounds. Its a clean/fuzz/heavily pedal distorted guitar for me.

Here's a couple options:
- Fender Classic Player Jazzmaster - P-90's, less string length behind the bridge
- Squier J Mascis Jazzmaster - P90's, less string length behind the bridge
- Fender/Squire offset tele - Tele single coils
- Fender Jim Root Jazzmaster - Humbuckers, hard tail
- Fender/Squier Starcaster - Wide Range Humbuckers
- G&L Doheny - pickups vary - single and humbuckers (and strat style trem)
- Fender Mustang with P-90's

I'm in London, and it can be hard to find offsets in SW Ontario unless you are looking for a new Squier/lower end Fender model. Most of mine have been either dumb luck or going to Toronto.

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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by SamthePlant » Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:40 pm

shoule79 wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:35 am
Hello fellow Ontarian!

Honestly, pick what you like that feels comfortable for you and use pedals. I started on offsets in the 90's, moved to LP's/Gibson's for awhile, then back to offsets. My band in the early 00's used to goof on old thrash metal during practice. I played Slayer many times on my JM (and a Rickenbacker) straight into my JCM 800.

A vintage style JM will cover more ground than you think with pedals. I have an Angry Charlie on my board that can morph it to sound similar to my Les Paul. It supplies more mids via the 3 band eq and had ton's of gain on tap. Its not 100%, but it'll fool anyone not in the front row. A tele, or offset telemaster , something that doesn't have the long runs of strings behind the bridge will be even closer (my tele isn't too far off my low output HB pickup Les Paul's tonal range). That pedal goes from Fugazi to MBV easily, and more.

I love my jag, but its not as flexible, and isn't as good at in between medium gain sounds. Its a clean/fuzz/heavily pedal distorted guitar for me.

Here's a couple options:
- Fender Classic Player Jazzmaster - P-90's, less string length behind the bridge
- Squier J Mascis Jazzmaster - P90's, less string length behind the bridge
- Fender/Squire offset tele - Tele single coils
- Fender Jim Root Jazzmaster - Humbuckers, hard tail
- Fender/Squier Starcaster - Wide Range Humbuckers
- G&L Doheny - pickups vary - single and humbuckers (and strat style trem)
- Fender Mustang with P-90's

I'm in London, and it can be hard to find offsets in SW Ontario unless you are looking for a new Squier/lower end Fender model. Most of mine have been either dumb luck or going to Toronto.

Yeah, I'm in Waterloo. Shopping for offsets in this part of the world sucks :(

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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by shoule79 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:45 am

It can be hit and miss, the last 4 i've owned were either flukes or I had to travel (i'm not one to pay Reverb.com like prices). Its not like the 90's and early 00's when decent MIJ's were around for cheap, or new in store. Usually i've found if anything hits the local market and isn't Squier its gone quick. I messaged about a backup for my AVRI JM a couple years ago 15 minutes after the ad went up and it was already spoken for.

- CIJ Jaguar - travelled to Leamington
- AVRI 62 JM - Found in a pawn shop near work for next to nothing
- 70's Mustang - in town but responded and picked it up within an hour of ad being posted to Kijiji
- Marr jaguar - Kijiji, met seller from Toronto

Just keep your eyes peeled, stuff is out there. Kijiji looking for ads and trawling pawn shops and mom and pop stores are your best bet.

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